Ukraine Invasion Part 18

[Ijsbear]

Place for information, discussion, points of view, useful links and above all, a hope that this sovereign land can regain its freedom.

@TiddyTidTwo

Timing the narrative for Russian citizens. Justifying the genocide which is now becoming more and more apparent. And preparing for what's to come, I suspect

Yes

Interesting to know if China spoke to Ukraine or Russia first….

Some things do not add up this morning and nor can they be explained away. Or at least they haven't. The RIA article is not consistent with the efforts Russia are making to convene a UN Security Council meeting. According to Reuters, the UN have rejected Russia's request and says "stick to the UN schedule".

The suspected Russian Bots/Putin sympathisers/Whatabouters have gone very quiet. Maybe even they can't stomach the latest atrocities that have come to light.

I note that a few of the posters who joined MN at around, or shortly before, the Russian invasion of Ukraine and fit the above description have not posted anything on MN since posting on the 15th and 16th threads of this series.

Kyiv Independent

Ukraine’s intelligence publishes list of Russian military stationed in Bucha.

Defense Ministry’s Intelligence Directorate published the names, ranks and passport details of Russians serving in the 64 Motor Rifle Brigade which occupied Bucha until March 31.

“All war criminals will be tried and prosecuted for crimes against the civilian population of Ukraine,” the intelligence said in a statement

Hopefully that will make the perpetrators feel a little less invulnerable Duncin

@Igotjelly

Interesting to know if China spoke to Ukraine or Russia first….

China wont want a war of attrition will it? And atrocities on view are not in its interests...

It is extraordinary to see the extent to which the Russian view will twist reality. In this excerpt from the full text in the article Tiddy posted earlier it even says:

ria.ru/20220403/ukraina-1781469605.html

”The latter, in turn, should begin with the organization of local self-government, police and defense bodies, cleansed of Nazi elements, launching on their basis the founding processes of founding a new republican statehood, integrating this statehood into close cooperation with the Russian department for the denazification of Ukraine (newly created or converted, say, from Rossotrudnichestvo), with the adoption under Russian control of the republican regulatory framework (legislation) on denazification, the definition of the boundaries and framework for the direct application of Russian law and Russian jurisdiction in the liberated territory in the field of denazification, the creation of a tribunal for crimes against humanity in the former Ukraine. In this regard, Russia should act as the guardian of the Nuremberg Trials.”*

Posted too soon - “Russia should act as the guardian of the Nuremberg trials.”

@RedToothBrush can you foresee a time when China get of their fence and condemn Russia’s actions?

DH told me the other day that reprisals aren't always war crimes, that the Geneva Convention allows for them under certain circumstances. I wonder if that is why that is why that article has now been released, as a twisted way of rewriting something horrendous into something justifiable.

A quick google tells me that in order for reprisals to be legal the following conditions have to met:

• There had to be a previous act by the other party that violated international law.
• Reprisals had to be preceded by an unsatisfied demand for reparation or compliance with the violated international law.

-There must be proportionality between the offence and reprisal.

Is that the narrative they're laying the groundwork for?

[quote Igotjelly]@RedToothBrush can you foresee a time when China get of their fence and condemn Russia’s actions?[/quote]
I was thinking about this earlier and wondering whether a drawn-out conflict might be in China's interests. An all-out victory in Ukraine would have significantly strengthened Russia, whereas a lengthy conflict weakens it until it becomes a more subservient partner in the partnership with China. That would presumably give China a huge amount of leverage over Russia and potentially favourable access to its resources.

If that's correct, then it's in China's interests to remain firmly on the fence, giving Russia enough rhetorical support to maintain the friendship and then take the upper hand in the partnership when Russia emerges from the conflict hugely weakened. Meanwhile, not providing overt assistance to Russia to maintain trade relations with the west.

Ukraine has lists of Russian soldiers who were stationed in Bucha. Bellingcat has good facial images of Russian soldiers posting looted goods in Belarus. Very few soldiers ever get prosecuted for war crimes but at the very least this war is providing data on the criminals.

"Grateful to my Chinese counterpart for solidarity with civilian victims."

Ukraine will have said "Nanjing" when they spoke to China. They've been outstanding at tapping into outside country's national soul.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre

DH told me the other day that reprisals aren't always war crimes, that the Geneva Convention allows for them under certain circumstances.

If they are allowed for then by definition they aren't crimes.

Meanwhile ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice_massacre
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane_massacre

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marzabotto_massacre (which resonates more personally)

others abound.

@EsmaCannonball

Ukraine has lists of Russian soldiers who were stationed in Bucha. Bellingcat has good facial images of Russian soldiers posting looted goods in Belarus. Very few soldiers ever get prosecuted for war crimes but at the very least this war is providing data on the criminals.

Thus laying the grounds for any number of films (hopefully not based on real life) where perpetrators are tracked down across the decades and the globe ...

What was the quote from the film "Munich" ?

I wonder if Russian soldiers may even have filmed their own exploits and if so may start boasting and spreading them, unless anyone higher up has thought to take away their phones.

@DGRossetti

DH told me the other day that reprisals aren't always war crimes, that the Geneva Convention allows for them under certain circumstances.

If they are allowed for then by definition they aren't crimes.

Meanwhile ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice_massacre
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane_massacre

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marzabotto_massacre (which resonates more personally)

others abound.

Others abound indeed - include at least one here on UK soil:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballymurphy_massacre

This would make the film

Kevin Rothrock
Ukrainian officials say locals in an occupied town near Kharkiv managed to kill 2 Russian soldiers & hospitalize another 28 by feeding them poisoned pies. Another 500 were purportedly given bad moonshine. “Ukrainians are resisting by any means available"

@ScrollingLeaves

I wonder if Russian soldiers may even have filmed their own exploits and if so may start boasting and spreading them, unless anyone higher up has thought to take away their phones.

@shreddednips I have thought that too. It's a massive opportunity and the more Russia is degraded the bigger that opportunity grows. It does presume the Russian people and particularly the rich will be happy with that and this I doubt. The long game is a collapse in Russian leadership and a realisation by the people that their true place is in Europe and a willingness to accept Russia in. Only the second is a given I think.

Anything from Biden yet?

Whoops, sorry tagged @ScrollingLeaves by mistake.

But while I am here, a combination of Elon Musk's satellites, Anonymous and a bit of help from GCHQ could quite easily see soldiers individually identified with photo-ID published. In fact I would bet on it before the month is out.

Dan Rivers @danriversitv
President Zelensky just gave a press conference in Bucha at the scene of a tangle and burnt column of Russian vehicles

@TiddyTidTwo

Anything from Biden yet?

I do think he’s conspicuous by his absence. Assuming the US are trying to work out how best to walk this particular tightrope.

@TargusEasting

Whoops, sorry tagged *@ScrollingLeaves* by mistake.

But while I am here, a combination of Elon Musk's satellites, Anonymous and a bit of help from GCHQ could quite easily see soldiers individually identified with photo-ID published. In fact I would bet on it before the month is out.

The Daily Mail even has the typeface for "ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE"