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Ukraine Invasion Part 18

999 replies

Ijsbear · 02/04/2022 14:10

Place for information, discussion, points of view, useful links and above all, a hope that this sovereign land can regain its freedom.

OP posts:
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15
RedToothBrush · 04/04/2022 07:57

Afp news agency @afp
#BREAKING France's Macron says wants fresh sanctions against Russia

notimagain · 04/04/2022 07:57

@WeAreTheHeroes

I would think the Russians will have realised by now what has been happening with the radios. There were reports shortly after the invasion started that unencrypted communications were being intercepted by the Ukrainians as the Russians resorted to using their mobiles when the radio system didn't work.
They will have known early on they were compromised but I’m not sure it’s wise to go into the details of how exactly it was done…general idea is to keep the ** guessing about the details for as long as possible..

And FWIW (and as I grumbled about yesterday) some journalists were being a bit eager in their reporting and as a result were probably helping the Russian’s out with their battle damage assessment.

Looks like action is now being taken:

odessa-journal.com/a-dutch-journalist-expelled-from-ukraine/

imi.org.ua/en/news/dutch-journalist-excpelled-from-ukraine-due-to-video-of-shelling-of-odessa-i44808

RedToothBrush · 04/04/2022 08:01

[quote WeAreTheHeroes]@BringBackCoffeeCreams - I'd take that at face value. The Ukrainian messages told them to stay put as fuel was en route. They were tricked and were sitting ducks.[/quote]
The article its from says the Russians worked out what was happening eventually so its not a secret they don't know about. Took them two weeks to properly realise though from the report.

ScrollingLeaves · 04/04/2022 08:06

@AlecTrevelyan006

Zelensky’s message at The Grammys. Well worth a watch

mobile.twitter.com/ReallyAmerican1/status/1510800791220719620

Thank you. It certainly is.

mintiness · 04/04/2022 08:10

[quote WeAreTheHeroes]@BringBackCoffeeCreams - I'd take that at face value. The Ukrainian messages told them to stay put as fuel was en route. They were tricked and were sitting ducks.[/quote]
Might this also explain some of the reports of Russian generals being targeted from unencrypted communications? If in reality UKR were intercepting the "secure" system but were keeping that quiet?

MrsLargeEmbodied · 04/04/2022 08:13

terrible war crimes being committed - awful to hear about

MagicFox · 04/04/2022 08:15

Crap if not unexpected news about Orban being re-elected. Shitty things alluded to in his speech too

maeveiscurious · 04/04/2022 08:18

@EsmaCannonball

I've now seen an image involving young children who were killed in Bucha. It's the most disturbing thing I have seen in this entire war. The UN needs to stop indulging the Russian representatives, the EU needs to kick out Hungary (they're only in it for the money), democracies need stop equivocating on sanctions and arms. Everything is already far too late.
I saw this last night and read about young girls (below that age of 10) with who are seriously injured by rape.

Many of these soldiers are young men, they will be corrupted forever and never be able to lead normal lives. Russian is going to have a real problem when these men go home

prettybird · 04/04/2022 08:23

Schrödinger's War Crimes: they were faked and didn't happen while simultaneously it was the Ukrainians who committed them ConfusedSadAngry

TheABC · 04/04/2022 08:24

*Many of these soldiers are young men, they will be corrupted forever and never be able to lead normal lives. Russian is going to have a real problem when these men go home."

Will they? Previous posters have pointed out similarities between this war and the others Russia has supported in the past thirty years. They managed then and will do so, again. We know Russia already suffers from high rates of suicide and domestic abuse - and we know about their despicable hazing procedures for recruits. It sounds like 'situation fucked up normal' for that side of the world.

PestorPeston · 04/04/2022 08:44

twitter.com/AsamiTerajima/status/1510658810003742725?s=20&t=KrYvX9a_OY1QHbCmbKNg-Q

There is no need to send food aid to the children of Bucha, most of them are killed

Alexandra2001 · 04/04/2022 08:48

@notimagain Of course kit cannot just be sent across the border with url to an on line manual!

Kurt Volker former US NATO ambassador says Ukraine needs to get everything the West has short of WMD... he especially mentioned anti ship missiles, not just to protect Odesa but Kviv too.

Of course thats just one persons opinion but i guess he would also understand the problems involved and also what will happen if we do not supply better weapons.

ClaudineClare · 04/04/2022 09:05

@PestorPeston

twitter.com/AsamiTerajima/status/1510658810003742725?s=20&t=KrYvX9a_OY1QHbCmbKNg-Q

There is no need to send food aid to the children of Bucha, most of them are killed

Christ, that is heartbreaking.
notimagain · 04/04/2022 09:10

[quote Alexandra2001]@notimagain Of course kit cannot just be sent across the border with url to an on line manual!

Kurt Volker former US NATO ambassador says Ukraine needs to get everything the West has short of WMD... he especially mentioned anti ship missiles, not just to protect Odesa but Kviv too.

Of course thats just one persons opinion but i guess he would also understand the problems involved and also what will happen if we do not supply better weapons.[/quote]
I may be wrong but from what I can see Mr Volker is a career civil servant so he may well know less about the grubby mechanical boots on the ground practicalities of all this than your relatives that have served do or I do for that matter.

He (and I notice Mr Johnson) can see that anti-ship missiles might be a good thing...but what type exactly does he suggest (and in the case of Mr Johnson I wonder if he knows what suitable ordnance the UK has got available?)

Fundamentally I'm all for giving the Ukrainians equipment in unlimited amounts that they can use quickly and effectively, but that rules out a lot of high end ordnance unless they already have the same kit in their inventory.

I'm really not so keen on thinking we should go down the road of clogging up the logistics chain sending something, anything, because "something must be seen to done", which seems to be the POV of some politicians and other high profile personalities.

Alexandra2001 · 04/04/2022 09:17

@notimagain I understand that but the bottom line is if we do not supply and train Ukrainians with e.g Anti Ship weapons, then in a few weeks time we will be seeing images of mass murder of civilians in Odesa.

We will then all be calling for war crimes tribunals etc I'd prefer to prevent the deaths in the first place.

Ukraine would only need to sink one or two Russian war ships in the Black Sea and they would have to withdraw out of range, which is 100s of kilometers.

We also need to halt the blockade of the Black Sea, its outrageous that Russia is being allowed to do this and aided by Turkey too.

...and don't give some 90 year old treaty, our enemy doesn't give a shit.

prettybird · 04/04/2022 09:18

I suspect, given that this war is looking like it is turning into a War of Attrition Sad, that if they're not already doing so Ukrainian personnel should be sent to be trained in some of the kit that would help.

Unfortunately it looks like there will be time for it to make a difference Sad

KonTikki · 04/04/2022 09:26

I support the idea of Merkel and Sarkozy being given a guided tour of areas evacuated by the Russian military, to see where their courting of Putin has led.
Abit like German civilians being "escorted" round the Camps at the end of WW2.

DrBlackbird · 04/04/2022 09:26

[quote AlecTrevelyan006]Zelensky’s message at The Grammys. Well worth a watch

mobile.twitter.com/ReallyAmerican1/status/1510800791220719620[/quote]
The battle for the world’s attention is a tough one. One of his worries must be that the West, the western media gets ‘tired’ of reporting, and that western govts turn their attention to domestic matters and away from the war on Ukraine. Would make it that much easier for Russia to carry on with less impunity. He’s v effective at working flat out to try not let that happen.

notimagain · 04/04/2022 09:28

@prettybird

I suspect, given that this war is looking like it is turning into a War of Attrition Sad, that if they're not already doing so Ukrainian personnel should be sent to be trained in some of the kit that would help.

Unfortunately it looks like there will be time for it to make a difference Sad

I do tend to agree with that line of thinking...

If I was going to speculate on this I'd rather hope for example that somewhere in the high desert of the US some Ukrainian pilots are perhaps being given a short conversion course (which might well still take months) onto some non-native MiG-29s or similar that have been spirited across the Atlantic...

RedToothBrush · 04/04/2022 09:55

David Demes @demesdavid
How is Chinese media reporting on the #BuchaMassacre? A short thread:

Yesterday evening’s main CCTV newscast (新闻联播) only mentioned the fact that the Ukrainian army had regained control of the Kyiv oblast, including Bucha. However, the report made no reference to the atrocities witnessed there. No central propaganda directive issued yet?

If you search for #Bucha on the People’s Daily website, you get no relevant results for either 布查 or 布恰 spellings. The People’s Daily is the communist party’s main propaganda mouthpiece and the newspaper of record in China.

Search results on Baidu show some other media reports on the “killing of civilians” in #Bucha. Most articles invoke the Russian foreign ministry spokeswoman’s denial and accusations of “yet another provocation” by Ukraine.

Many mention the statement by UN general secretary Guterres calling for an “independent investigation”. Will be interesting to see whether China will support such an investigation in the UN security council.

Today, the main newscast at 12 noon on CCTV-13, the most important news channel in China, also did not mention the #BuchaMassacre.

DuncinToffee · 04/04/2022 10:02

Marcel Dirsus with a thread on Germany

I know a lot of foreigners are struggling to understand why Germany keeps sending billions to Moscow while Russia is waging war against Ukraine. Here's a thread to explain how this looks from Germany:
twitter.com/marceldirsus/status/1510892812891561988?s=21

German foreign policy:

  1. Ignore issue as long as possible
  2. Say it can't be done
  3. Watch everything get worse
  4. Lose allied trust due to inaction
  5. Reluctantly change course
  6. 🎉"We're amazing because we changed course"🎉

They are now at stage 4

RedToothBrush · 04/04/2022 10:24

Tim White @TWMCltd
As #Russia denies war crimes, accusing #Ukraine of faking the bodies on the streets of #Kyiv region, #Poland has called for EU sanctions against all members of Russia's ruling "United Russia" party

Some Russian media today seem to be openly advocating ethnic cleansing in Ukraine

Illia Ponomenkro @IAponomarenko
Regarding Bucha - we heard rumors.
When the city was still under Russian occupation, it was hard to get anyone on the phone. But some people from Bucha said Russian officers were coming to every apartment, checking documents, looking for adult males.
There were rumors.

The Times @times
Military explosives experts were moving through Bucha to make bodies safe after the discovery of corpses booby trapped by Russians fleeing Irpin, the suburb closest to Kyiv that had been liberated a day earlier

Ukrainian prosecutors investigating possible war crimes by Russia have found 410 bodies in towns near Kyiv and 140 of them had been examined, Iryna Venedyktova, the country’s prosecutor-general, said yesterday

Richard Moore @chiefMI6
We knew Putin’s invasion plans included summary executions by his military and intelligence services. The reports of execution-style killings of civilians emerging from liberated areas are horrifying and chilling.

The Kyiv Independent @kyivindependent
Macron responds to massacre in Bucha, urges ban on Russian coal, oil.

French President says he supports further sanctions against Moscow after Russia killed hundreds of Ukrainian civilians in Bucha, near Kyiv.

“There are very clear indications of war crimes,” he added.

Dan Rivers @danriversitv
Just been to witness the mass grave at Motyzhin of a local mayor, her husband and their 26 year old son. There is at least one other body there and another in a drainage pipe nearby. Russian ration packs discarded near the scene. Horrific evidence of war crimes.

Motyzhin is slightly further south and west from Irpin.

Sergej Sumlenny @sumlenny
In German city of Bautzen, Saxony region, Ukrainian priest Serhii Kosyak was attacked and beaten by unknown people who spotted a Ukrainian flag in his car. Bautzen is a hotspot for GER far rights, who are mostly pro-Russian. Will @Bundeskanzler and @ABaerbock mention this case?

There are also numerous rumours about East of Kyiv around the Brovary area with villages Peremoha, Zavorochy, and Velyka Dymerka (amongst others) named as places where similar things to Bucha are being suggested.

Still not seeing much about Chernihiv but again there are rumours. The motorway between Chernihiv and Kyiv is being reopened today so I suspect once they start getting people up that way in numbers, there will be a bit more...

RedToothBrush · 04/04/2022 10:34

www.reuters.com/world/conscripts-sent-fight-by-pro-russia-donbas-get-little-training-old-rifles-poor-2022-04-04/
Conscripts sent to fight by pro-Russia Donbas get little training, old rifles, poor supplies

Military conscripts in the Russian-backed Donbas region have been sent into front-line combat against Ukrainian troops with no training, little food and water, and inadequate weapons, six people in the separatist province told Reuters.

The new accounts of untrained and ill-equipped conscripts being deployed are a fresh indication of how stretched the military resources at the Kremlin's disposal are, over a month into a war that has seen Moscow's forces hobbled by logistical problems and held up by fierce Ukrainian resistance.

One of the people, a student conscripted in late February, said a fellow fighter told him to prepare to repel a close-quarter attack by Ukrainian forces in southwest Donbas but "I don't even know how to fire an automatic weapon."

And

Besides the student draftee, Reuters spoke to three wives of conscripts who have mobile phone contact with their partners, one acquaintance of a draftee, and one source close to the pro-Russian separatist leadership who is helping to organize supplies for the Donbas armed forces.

Reuters verified the identity of the student, as well as the other sources and the draftees they are associated with. The news agency was unable to confirm independently the accounts of what happened to the men once they were drafted.

The six sources all asked that their full names not be published, saying that they feared reprisals for speaking to foreign media.

The Donbas armed forces are fighting alongside Russian soldiers but are not part of the Russian armed forces, which have different rules about which troops they send into combat.

Several Donbas draftees have been issued with a rifle called a Mosin, which was developed in the late 19th century and went out of production decades ago, according to three people who saw conscripts from the separatist region using the weapon. Images shared on social media, that Reuters has not been able to verify independently, also showed Donbas fighters with Mosin rifles.

The student said he was forced to drink water from a fetid pond because of lack of supplies. Two other sources in contact with draftees also told Reuters the men had to drink untreated water.

Some Donbas conscripts were given the highly dangerous mission of drawing enemy fire onto themselves so other units could identify the Ukrainian positions and bomb them, according to one of the sources and video testimony from a prisoner of war published by Ukrainian forces.

And

After being pushed to the front line near the port of Mariupol scene of the heaviest fighting in the war a group of about 135 Donbas conscripts laid down their arms and refused to fight on, according to Veronika, the partner of a conscript, who said her husband was among them. Marina, partner of another conscript, said she had been in contact with a friend who was part of the same group.

"We're refusing (to fight)," the friend wrote in a text message to Marina, seen by Reuters.

The men were kept in a basement by military commanders as punishment, Veronika and Marina said. Commanders verbally threatened them with reprisals but subsequently allowed the group out of the basement, pulled them back from the front line and billeted them in abandoned homes, Veronika said.

Alexandra2001 · 04/04/2022 10:35

@KonTikki

I support the idea of Merkel and Sarkozy being given a guided tour of areas evacuated by the Russian military, to see where their courting of Putin has led. Abit like German civilians being "escorted" round the Camps at the end of WW2.
I don't unless you include Fifa, the FIA, UEFA, the UN, EU leaders inc UK CEO's of /jaguar, RollsRoyce, Boeing, Airbus and every country that has traded with Russia.

We are all complicit, the USA chucked out more diplomates & sanctioned more banks over the Salisbury attack than the UK did.

Plus of course there are all of us who did not demand from our politicians tougher actions on Russia and favoured cheaper energy and goods instead.....

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