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Ukraine Invasion Part 18

999 replies

Ijsbear · 02/04/2022 14:10

Place for information, discussion, points of view, useful links and above all, a hope that this sovereign land can regain its freedom.

OP posts:
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15
EsmaCannonball · 03/04/2022 22:53

Unconfirmed stories are now coming out of Chernihiv. None of them are currently verified or documented but, if true, then it's going to be even worse than Bucha.

RedToothBrush · 03/04/2022 22:57

A more sophisticated explanation of the 'Genocide Script'. Learn, watch, observe unfolding in realtime:

Jasmin Mujanović @JasminMuj
As more atrocity sites are discovered in Ukraine following the ouster of Russian occupation forces, we can anticipate that the “denial stage” of Russia’s campaign will follow a familiar pattern. Again, I think Serb nationalist negationism of the Bosnian Genocide is instructive.

Despite the chaotic scenes in Bucha, the first step of this process has already taken place out of view. Russian forces have already taken steps to obscure the extent of their mass killings. Expect (variously effectively) concealed mass graves to be discovered in coming days/weeks.

It’s possible that in areas along the Belarus/Russia border, persons & bodies will actually have been transported across the border to be killed/buried there. The Milosevic regime did this both during the Bosnian Genocide and Kosovo in Serbia proper.

The “quality” of the burial sites will also vary depending on how much time the perpetrators had to do their work. The longer the occupation, the more organized and/or concealed the burial sites are going to be. There’s not going to be a consistent model.

Secondly, Russian govt/media will insist that any apparent civilian deaths are fabrications. This is crude but effective propaganda that will buy the regime more time to come up w/ more coherent narratives. This will co-exist w/ claims that the numbers are (grossly) inflated.

It will also co-exist w/ claims that any actual civilian deaths were “false flag” attacks by the UA govt, i.e. they attacked their own people. This is the go-to claim by SRB nationalists viz the Markale massacre(s), ditto the 1995 Tuzla massacre.

As the scale of the killings becomes impossible to dispute, they’ll shift to claiming that those killed were actually active combatants, not civilians and/or POWs. This remains the standard issue line viz the Srebrenica Genocide by SRB nationalists. One example below already.

A particular variation will also admit to (some portion of) the killings but claim that they were “justified reprisals” for still “greater” atrocities committed by UA forces. Again, this is a standard SRB nationalist talking pt re: the Srebrenica Genocide.

Finally, watch also for atrocity glorification to co-exist w/ denial. Perpetrators will have recorded/photographed the killings and/or the results. Extremist Russian media will publish examples of this too. Glorification will likely increase w/ time as it has in Serbia.

In this context, it’s also likely some actual evidence of mass killing will be falsely portrayed as Ukrainian atrocities by Russian media. They’ll do this intentionally to confuse international media/perception. We’ve seen this in Syria most recently, also amplified by RUS media.

Throughout this entire process, Western “anti-imperialist” figures will be & are critical nodes in disseminating disinformation, denial, & negationist narratives. They’ll do the heavy lifting in skewing perceptions among folks in the U.S., EU et al. Again, cf. Syria.

It’s important that we anticipate. They are already doing this, they will continue. They will have some success. But if we prepare for it & organize sustained counter disinfo campaigns, we can check their efforts. The work of @SrebrenicaMC & @SrebrenicaUK is instructive.

In short, concealment/denial are the final stage of atrocities. The situation in Ukraine remains fluid but we cannot pretend like we don’t know where this is going. Moreover, we should expect mass killings to continue. It’s why NATO must continue to arm UA to prevent these. /x

RedToothBrush · 03/04/2022 22:58

@EsmaCannonball

Unconfirmed stories are now coming out of Chernihiv. None of them are currently verified or documented but, if true, then it's going to be even worse than Bucha.
I am expecting Chernihiv to be BAD.

Jo @JoJoFromJerz
BREAKING: Anonymous has leaked the personal data of 120,000 Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine including army unit details, which could make it easier to identify war criminals.

Let's f*cking go!

RedToothBrush · 03/04/2022 22:59

Andrew Lilico @andrew_lilico
Trying not to think too hard about the atrocities the Russians would have committed if they'd won.

This is the scary bit...

Shuuu · 03/04/2022 22:59

“Polish prime minister calling for an EU meeting to discuss further harsh sanctions”

What else can they really do now?

Stop oil shipments. But that won’t work for many NATO countries.

Start taking visas away.

Stop all trace with Russia.

I can’t see anything working as it’s clear certain countries such as China will help Russia

TargusEasting · 03/04/2022 23:03

I wish it was possible to donate to Anonymous. Though I suspect there may be some law against that.

RedToothBrush · 03/04/2022 23:14

The Kyiv Independent @KyivIndependent
Zelensky invites Merkel, Sarkozy to Bucha to see the result of years-long concessions to Russia.

In his evening address, Zelensky invited the former European leaders to “see tortured Ukrainians with their own eyes” to understand what the concession policy to Russia has led to.

Onceuponatimeinalandfaraway · 03/04/2022 23:15

Found it in place marking

RedToothBrush · 03/04/2022 23:15

MFA Russia @mfa_russia
Russia government organization
Official Statement by @mod_russia ⚡
All the photos and videos published by the Kiev regime in Bucha are just another provocation.

RedToothBrush · 03/04/2022 23:17

twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/1510742479611510787
Zelensky's address to Ukraine tonight.

With english subtitles.

Its powerful.

ScrollingLeaves · 03/04/2022 23:36

@EsmaCannonball

“Now there are images from Hostomel of women's bodies with swastikas branded into them.”

EsmaCannonball
I saw this:

@MMaya_ru | 1,028 followers

In Mariupol, nationalists burned a swastika on a girl's body.The body was shown to us by DNR fighters in the basement of a school in, where #Azov had a base.One arm was torn off, remnants of a cellophane bag or duct tape were visible on her head.#Russia #Ukraine
www.trendsmap.com/twitter/tweet/1508353703451017216

I feel so confused. Would this be falsely tweeted to spread the idea that Ukrainians (Azov) are also doing what you mentioned had happened at the hands of Russians in Hostomel? Or is it true?

EsmaCannonball · 03/04/2022 23:40

I've now seen an image involving young children who were killed in Bucha. It's the most disturbing thing I have seen in this entire war. The UN needs to stop indulging the Russian representatives, the EU needs to kick out Hungary (they're only in it for the money), democracies need stop equivocating on sanctions and arms. Everything is already far too late.

RedToothBrush · 03/04/2022 23:50

Trent Telenko @TrentTelenko
This is a really nice history snapshot thread on the Battle of Kyiv that has been making the rounds.

twitter.com/tomiahonen/status/1510276474175115281

This thread details how Putin's Plan A was how to take Ukraine in 4 hours: Seize the capital, take the TV/radio, & declare on TV you won. Russia/Soviet Union have done three times. Thats why there was the really risky air assault at Hostomel Airport. Transport planes were supposed to land 7,000 men and their armored vehicles, to take the Presidential Palace (& TV stations) in Kyiv. But the CIA got wind of this and told the Ukrainians.

Then Plan B was to surround Kyiv in three days: To do a Mariupol and surround it in 3 days meaning surrender would be inevitable. But they ran out of fuel. They only had enough for three days and the refueling didn't arrive.

Its very long but good.

Trent Telenko @TrentTelenko
I have a few minor objections to it based on what is missing.

Ukrainian leadership & Russian corruption thread🧵

The 1st missing piece is the Pres. Zelensky statement to the West "I need ammunition, not a ride."

"The moral is to the physical what ten is to one"
-- Napoléon Bonaparte of France

This political act that set the table for the defeat of the Russian VDV outside Kyiv.

It prepared the Ukrainian Army for a fight to the death at Kyiv and in a sentance gave the Ukrainian people a rallying cry.

The 2nd thing left out was a military decision by Pres. Zelensky that defeated the 3-day plan to encircle Kyiv.

Zelensky ordered the approaches to to Kyiv flooded.

It was this act that set the table for Ukrainian Aerorozvidka weaponized commercial drones to block the bottlenecked by flooding road supply line to the 70,000 Russian troops sitting out of fuel North West of Kyiv.

The last objection is explaining how the Ukrainians could "play games" with Russian communications.

This involved the failure in by corruption of the Russian Azart digital spread spectrum software defined radio.

According to www.strategypage.com/htmw/htecm/articles/20220328.aspx

"Azart proved less capable than expected under combat conditions because there were not enough of them and these radios were unable to remain in contact with higher headquarters. In combat Russian support forces are supposed to erect temporary repeater towers or employ vehicles carrying mobile towers so that Azart users on the front line could stay in touch with other units and the chain of command that went all the way back to the Stavka (Great Staff) in Moscow that controlled all military operations. The repeater towers did not work because armed Ukrainians found and destroyed them."

And a little later at the same link --

"The Ukrainians know all about Azart because soon after Russian troops began receiving them in 2017, many also showed up on the black market, where anyone could buy one. The Ukrainians did so and, along with NATO, discovered what Azart could do and what its weaknesses were. Ukrainian and NATO tech experts concluded that, with proper countermeasures, the Azart radios would become a major liability for Russian commanders and it was."

This "failure by corruption" of the Azart radios enabled Ukraine to counterfeit "The Fuel convoy is coming" messages that took quite some time for the Russian Army HQ to pick up on.

This was aided greatly by capturing the Azart radio gear frequency, password & encryption setting documents of the 1st VDV assault on the Antonov facility.

Zelinsky's leadership & Russian corruption (including tires as well as radios!), plus the blood of Ukrainian Patriots beat all of Putin's plans.

BreadInCaptivity · 04/04/2022 00:06

[quote ScrollingLeaves]@EsmaCannonball

“Now there are images from Hostomel of women's bodies with swastikas branded into them.”

EsmaCannonball
I saw this:

@MMaya_ru | 1,028 followers

In Mariupol, nationalists burned a swastika on a girl's body.The body was shown to us by DNR fighters in the basement of a school in, where #Azov had a base.One arm was torn off, remnants of a cellophane bag or duct tape were visible on her head.#Russia #Ukraine
www.trendsmap.com/twitter/tweet/1508353703451017216

I feel so confused. Would this be falsely tweeted to spread the idea that Ukrainians (Azov) are also doing what you mentioned had happened at the hands of Russians in Hostomel? Or is it true?[/quote]

It's certainly not from an unbiased source.

Some "interesting" tweets by that person such as "Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian ridiculed US requests to take sides in the Ukrainian crisis. "When the US forces others to take sides, it really means 'take (my) side'!" - wrote a representative of the Chinese Foreign Ministry ..Uff. How do you say thank you in Chinese? 😊"

And "Even the American had some uncomfortable questions about Azow. #Zelensky confirmed that the fascist organisation was a Ukrainian state structure. This is only possible in a fascist state. Even in the USA, Azov is recognised as fascist and extremist. "

So no, I'm not going to put much faith in anything that particular person has to say whilst apparently tucked away in Russia and far from the atrocities they describe.

Shuuu · 04/04/2022 00:12

@EsmaCannonball

I've now seen an image involving young children who were killed in Bucha. It's the most disturbing thing I have seen in this entire war. The UN needs to stop indulging the Russian representatives, the EU needs to kick out Hungary (they're only in it for the money), democracies need stop equivocating on sanctions and arms. Everything is already far too late.
I totally agree. Kick them all out, Hungary etc. Unleash economic fury on China, start realising names of Russian soldiers where we hold evidence of war crimes. The images we are seeing of Bucha are absolutely harrowing. I’m so sad tonight. I think it’s about time the battle wasn’t limited to Ukraine. War is war, Russia is fair game too
RedToothBrush · 04/04/2022 00:43

Tomi T Ahonen Standing With Ukraine @tomiahonen
I want to underline this point. The Russian commanders trusted this 'secure' Azart system, that commands in it are of course genuine, came from the commander they thought they were talking to

And Ukrainians had in effect imposters communicating issuing false commands to Russians

BoreOfWhabylon · 04/04/2022 01:03

Bellingcat:
Along with our colleagues from
@CITeam_en
are collecting evidence on who were responsible for the massacres. There's evidence that 76th and 98th airborne assault divisions, as well as Kadyrov's Rosgvardia units were located there. We are looking for more evidence now.

twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1510613976903827457?s=20&t=dYvyjISVSJhpSc86gg_WeA

FannyCann · 04/04/2022 03:42

.

AlecTrevelyan006 · 04/04/2022 07:27

Zelensky’s message at The Grammys. Well worth a watch

mobile.twitter.com/ReallyAmerican1/status/1510800791220719620

PaperTyger · 04/04/2022 07:35

This isn't over yet should they be giving swayed their radio secrets?

BringBackCoffeeCreams · 04/04/2022 07:47

@RedToothBrush

Tomi T Ahonen Standing With Ukraine *@tomiahonen* I want to underline this point. The Russian commanders trusted this 'secure' Azart system, that commands in it are of course genuine, came from the commander they thought they were talking to

And Ukrainians had in effect imposters communicating issuing false commands to Russians

Is this an explaination of why they've done so badly, our commands were muddled, or an attempt to justify their crimes, the Ukrainians made us do it? Or both?
WeAreTheHeroes · 04/04/2022 07:49

I would think the Russians will have realised by now what has been happening with the radios. There were reports shortly after the invasion started that unencrypted communications were being intercepted by the Ukrainians as the Russians resorted to using their mobiles when the radio system didn't work.

WeAreTheHeroes · 04/04/2022 07:51

@BringBackCoffeeCreams - I'd take that at face value. The Ukrainian messages told them to stay put as fuel was en route. They were tricked and were sitting ducks.

Ijsbear · 04/04/2022 07:52

a painting, but enough to bring tears to the eyes. twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1510335025476210690?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

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