Ukraine Invasion Part 18

[Ijsbear]

Place for information, discussion, points of view, useful links and above all, a hope that this sovereign land can regain its freedom.

Just seen footage from another liberated area. A cellar lined with the bodies of people executed with their hands tied behind their backs. Seems to be adult men but not immediately clear.

This is near Sumy

www.spiegel.de/international/europe/liberated-from-the-russians-a-visit-to-trostyanets-after-the-end-of-the-occupation-a-c088be53-5f6c-4059-8d46-68803276e473
A Visit to Trostyanets After the End of the Occupation

Incredibly similar to the story in Bucha etc.

Esma I've just read some were 14/15 yr old boys. I won't go into more detail as it's horrific.

[quote ScrollingLeaves]“@Ijsbear

I am equally interested to know what it is that makes some soldiers not commit terrible crimes when they are going on all around

Suspect it's a mix of love while growing up, not being brutalized in training and sheer inborn personality. Not new news, but I don't think the absolute crucial necessity of a reasonable start in life can ever be underestimated. A young person who is shown empathy grows up to have empathy for others and that will come out in the strangest and most challenging of times.“

I once read a book by Sue Gerhardt, “Why Love Matters” which is about how the brains of children are physiologically affected by early empathy and love or lack of it.

And Alice Miller finds the roots of the proclivities of murderers and horrific dictators ( or suicides and self harm through drugs) in their experiences of childhood abuse without a healing ‘witness’.

A M I think touched on how in earlier societies, when harsh child rearing was the norm, it suited those society to have more aggressive, hardened people growing up.

I haven’t seen a systematic study of soldiers who have admitted war crimes ( there were some from Vietnam who admitted them).

Quickly looking things up just now it seems that in Russia domestic and child abuse is fairly normal.

en.hromadske.ua/posts/exclusive-investigation-domestic-violence-against-children-in-russia

www.themoscowtimes.com/2012/12/25/child-abuse-in-russia-is-routine-a20452[/quote]
“All the data we have tell us that if we deny a child sensitive caring during the first one or two years of life, as Johanna Haarer suggests,” you end up with children who have limited emotional and reflective abilities."

Widening it further, this is a very interesting article about the generational effects of harsh parenting techniques on people who were babies during the Third Reich and afterwards. Although it seems to be a vicious circle, as only cultures that were already harsh could countenance such harsh child-raising techniques. It also talks about the Romanian orphans.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/harsh-nazi-parenting-guidelines-may-still-affect-german-children-of-today1/

Illia Ponomarenko @IAPomomarenko
That’s it.
The Ukrainian military has secured the Belarussian-Ukrainian border in Kyiv region.

Please guys let's not argue.

--

About attachment theory, there is a lot in it but the degree to which it's applied is being criticised in some quarters. Quite a lot of the Romanian orphanage children, a majority or something close to it iirc, do not show signs of reactive attachment disorder. The first two years are deeply important - deeply- but what comes after also has a considerable influence. And many children manage to avoid signs of attachment issues even when you'd think they would develop them. It's a subtle issue and with many complexities. (Ref - Prof Michael Fitzgerald, Criticism of Attachment Theory 2020)

Robert Dalsjo @MansRAD
Will the Russian massacre in Bucha play the same role in this war as Srebrenica did in Bosnia? A brazen and cruel act that finally broke the West’s restraint and fears of escalation. Not that Nato will bomb Russia, but there may be fewer inhibitions about providing aid.

It does seem that there is a change in tone.

Its also deeply frustrating as it was obvious that this was happening for some time. People just didn't want to believe it. Mariupol wasn't enough, clearly.

And thats why I thought the MiGs should never have been the debate they became...

Aside, i hope those who had a great deal of sympathy for Russian soldiers on earlier threads, will note the mass graves, summary executions and bodies left in the streets as Russia redeploys, we can see that this so called "liberating" army has zero discipline and acted just as they did as they swept through Germany towards Berlin in WW2

Also some people mentioned this at the beginning of the war and had various patronising comments aimed at them about not knowing the difference between the Soviet Army of the 40s and the Russian Army of today. Hmmm, well it isn't necessarily that different, is it?

@yellowsuninthesky

Aside, i hope those who had a great deal of sympathy for Russian soldiers on earlier threads, will note the mass graves, summary executions and bodies left in the streets as Russia redeploys, we can see that this so called "liberating" army has zero discipline and acted just as they did as they swept through Germany towards Berlin in WW2

Also some people mentioned this at the beginning of the war and had various patronising comments aimed at them about not knowing the difference between the Soviet Army of the 40s and the Russian Army of today. Hmmm, well it isn't necessarily that different, is it?

Indeed, i got a 7 day ban from MNHQ, accused of racism and being blood thirsty! Where as the reality couldn't be further from the truth, i very much wanted pre invasion talks to work because war is terrible & Putin has a great deal of form when it comes to waging death on the unarmed.

Haaretz.com @haaretz
Israel’s envoy to Ukraine denounced the killing of civilians in a Kyiv suburb as a “war crime”

Ambassador Michael Brodsky's comment came after Ukrainian forces recaptured the city, where reporters saw bodies lying in the streets

Brodsky’s comments are different from those coming from higher echelon officials in Jerusalem, and it's very unusual for an official Israeli representative to tweet something like this himself

Israeli Foreign Ministry says Ukraine envoy's comments on killing of civilians in Kyiv is not an official position: “It’s a tweet by the ambassador regarding the photos. He didn’t blame Russia”

www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-in-rare-rebuke-israeli-envoy-blasts-war-crimes-after-russia-flees-kyiv-suburb-1.10716828

So the official position of Israel is not to blame Russia for its war crimes on civilians.

Glad we got that straight...

@RedToothBrush

Robert Dalsjo *@MansRAD* Will the Russian massacre in Bucha play the same role in this war as Srebrenica did in Bosnia? A brazen and cruel act that finally broke the West’s restraint and fears of escalation. Not that Nato will bomb Russia, but there may be fewer inhibitions about providing aid.

It does seem that there is a change in tone.

Its also deeply frustrating as it was obvious that this was happening for some time. People just didn't want to believe it. Mariupol wasn't enough, clearly.

And thats why I thought the MiGs should never have been the debate they became...

Yep the West needs to give anti ship missiles to protect Odesa, planes via Poland and advanced anti aircraft to protect the skies.

Too much pussy footing around with Putin.

Wedaddy @weddaddy
Russia's script of lies perfected in Syria:
1- dead civilians aren't dead
2- We don't shoot civilians
3- No civilians hurt while we were there
4- Someone else shot the civilians
5- Ukrainians shot the civilians
6- the civilians were Russians shot by Ukraine
We're @ stage 3

Worth observing to see if the script is followed.

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
“Rape, torture, mass graves… Russian troops even arranged a human safari with civilians. The suffering and the pain, it’s unspeakable”.

Our T&G interview today with Ukraine’s Foreign Minister @DmytroKuleba on the Bucha massacre. A very difficult listen.

t.co/oRNSXK6sYH

Russian troops are looting to order, Kuleba also says.

“We intercept phone calls between soldiers to their families. In some, a soldier says, I have looted a house, I will send this and that to you. In others, the family members encourage soldiers to get them mixers or fridges”.

Russian troops even arranged a human safari with civilians.

I hope enough people have seen "Schindler's List" to remember that Amon Goeth used to shoot inmates from his balcony with a hunting rifle.

@Abra1d1
“All the data we have tell us that if we deny a child sensitive caring during the first one or two years of life, as Johanna Haarer suggests,” you end up with children who have limited emotional and reflective abilities."

Widening it further, this is a very interesting article about the generational effects of harsh parenting techniques on people who were babies during the Third Reich and afterwards. Although it seems to be a vicious circle, as only cultures that were already harsh could countenance such harsh child-raising techniques. It also talks about the Romanian orphans.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/harsh-nazi-parenting-guidelines-may-still-affect-german-children-of-today1/“

Re: the possibility that lack of love/abuse in infancy and childhood may lead to some people being more susceptible to becoming war criminals:

Thank you for that article which is very interesting.

This article is not scientific but does perhaps explain something about Putin,
acestoohigh.com/2022/03/02/how-vladimir-putins-childhood-is-affecting-us-all/

"Yep the West needs to give anti ship missiles to protect Odesa, planes via Poland and advanced anti aircraft to protect the skies.

Too much pussy footing around with Putin*"

Agree. That arsehole is not going to stop.

Placemarking and will now scroll up and read back.

There was news story today about a 13 y/o Ikranian lass who got shrapnel in her head after her home was bombed & wasn't able to get to a big enough hospital that could operate for 3 weeks (she & her mother had to travel something like 250m across a conflict zone). She is now in recovery & her (physical) outlook is good. Extraordinary.
Apparantly she wants to play guitar & was hoping for a new one just prior to this. I hope she gets the shiny new black one she wanted.

Re: trauma and young refugees.
There is also increasing evidence (re attachment and trauma) that having just one stable, caring, committed adult in your life can offset some of the damage previously done.

@52andblue

Placemarking and will now scroll up and read back.

There was news story today about a 13 y/o Ikranian lass who got shrapnel in her head after her home was bombed & wasn't able to get to a big enough hospital that could operate for 3 weeks (she & her mother had to travel something like 250m across a conflict zone). She is now in recovery & her (physical) outlook is good. Extraordinary.
Apparantly she wants to play guitar & was hoping for a new one just prior to this. I hope she gets the shiny new black one she wanted.

Remarkable story, the surgeons answer when asked how did he felt when he got the shrapnel out is priceless and heart warming.

As awful as Russia's behavior is, there are still huge numbers of decent people throughout the world, its just the evil ones let us all down.

S Sebag Montefiore @simonmontefiore
Today in 1940 Stalin & Beria started the murder of 22000 Poles in Katyn Forest. It took 28 nights & the chief executioner wore a butchers apron over his NKVD uniform. As we absorb todays Russian killings of Ukraine civilians, it’s hard not to think of the past...
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Now the US have in the past published pictures from Syria which they claim show mass graves.

So if its going on in Ukraine now, Western Intelligence WILL be aware of it.

"Yep the West needs to give anti ship missiles to protect Odesa, planes via Poland and advanced anti aircraft to protect the skies.

Nice generic shopping list, looks good on paper.

Dare I ask what exact systems are people thinking of that the Ukrainians can operate straight out of the box or (given time is of the essence) at the very least with minimal retraining?

I do have compassion for -some- Russian soldiers yes. Not all.

If my family had been abused and killed then I don't know if I'd feel the same, though I have seen friends survive extraordinary abuse. But I do not want to hate the Russian soldiers, at least the better ones. I hate what they have done, but I'd rather not hate them.

Mostly I wish that they could be better educated from young and given better discipline. That the Russian govt actually cared about its people enough to ensure they are educated and taught civic values that are good, not just Might Makes Right.

@DGRossetti Have you read forensic pathologist Susan Black's book? she was sent to the former Yugoslavia to collect evidence. The horror of one particular scene is truly the stuff of nightmares. I don't think the war in Ukraine is that bad - yet.

Humans can be so appalling.

Yet even in the blackest of situations, small touches of person- to-person kindness come out.