Govt extending school day by a few minutes in ignorance of how schools work

[noblegiraffe]

The government have decided to mandate a minimum 32.5 hour week for schools - the equivalent of being open from 8:45 to 3:15

This is not a specified teaching time, but opening time. Schools who are under will have to find ways to tack extra time onto the teaching day, perhaps by making lunchtime longer or adding an extra break. A school that has, for example, 20 minutes form time, 5 hours of lessons, 20 minutes of break and 40 minutes of lunch is not open long enough. One that has the same arrangement but 50 minutes lunch is fine.

Why? Fuck knows. What they have once again completely failed to do is consult schools about why their opening hours are as they are. Schools in my area, for example, have finely co-ordinated finishing times to avoid massive congestion. Schools who are under would have to consider opening earlier which will mess up buses, and screw those with childcare commitments. It's going to be logistically challenging to arrange, but of course, it won't be the DfE doing it.

schoolsweek.co.uk/schools-asked-to-offer-32-5-hour-week-by-2023-and-ofsted-will-check/

@TizerorFizz Not enough vacancies for the while teaching population to move into them. They often also don't pay into the TPS anymore.

Private school hours aren't representative of the education being better. There are a lot of reasons why private school pupils do better. Mostly their socio economic background.

Ooohhh great!! That will shave 50 minutes a week off my 'contact time' then 👍 My school is 8.40-3.20 (but we have to open our doors and are actually supervising children from 8.30...it's a long day!)

If this happens, I won't be able to make it back to collect my child by the time nursery closes 👍 Just something else for me to worry about !

@Hercisback

The staff carpark is empty by 4. Staff go on about all the work they have to do from home but if they stayed at work til 6 like the rest of us then they'd have their evenings free!

Probably full from 8. What childcare is open til 6? Latest I have ever found is 5.30 and that's flipping expensive.

Not the point of the thread, and I don’t actually agree with that poster. But can you really not find childcare past half 5? All the nurseries we looked at for DD were open until at least 6, presumably since a lot of people using them work 9-5:30.

Yep really nothing after half 5. Nursery was until 6, primary school aged child now needs collecting by 4.30.
Lots of people finishing at 6 have kids with them at home.

I remember during lockdown and the early stages of schools opening to all pupils posters here how much their children had missed seeing others face to face at school.

I can understand the reasons days have got shorter but it does mean less time to socialise. This report from the Nuffield Foundation talks about the importance of lunchtimes. However that is not government’s stated aim of the changes. Also needs funding for extra supervision/clubs.

However the governments apparent aim was more time in class. It won’t require specific amount of teaching time and fund accordingly and anyway goes against academy agenda of freedom.

@Hercisback
Obviously there are not enough vacancies in private schools for everyone but ones who really think it’s a better option should apply.

The Oxbridge grads I currently know who teach are teaching in grammar schools. A Warwick maths grad is teaching in a big 6th form colleges in Hampshire. No one seems to go into a deprived area.

@TizerorFizz I'm not sure what your point is re deprived areas?

Did anyone say private was a better option? They just pointed out the longer day is offset by longer holidays.

Why don’t you if you want longer holidays?

Who has said they want longer holidays? (I may have missed it).

What people have said is that independent schools normally compensate for their longer school days by having longer holidays.

Very many teachers working in the public sector do so out of a sense of vocation and to “make a difference”. I for one, though privately educated, wouldn’t have been comfortable working in the independent sector. I don’t disapprove of private schools - people should be able to educate their children as they wish (within reason) - but I was of more use in the local comprehensive.

A Warwick maths grad is teaching in a big 6th form colleges in Hampshire.

I’m a Warwick Maths graduate and spent most of my career teaching in a High School in a grammar school area. There were other graduates of prestigious universities there with me, some with doctorates. (This didn’t necessarily make them better teachers though. Some with old style qualifications from TT colleges were just as good, if not better).
Our top sets were easily on a par with grammar school students, which was why we were actually the first choice for many who felt that selection at 11 wasn’t a particularly good thing.

The Oxbridge grads I currently know who teach are teaching in grammar schools. A Warwick maths grad is teaching in a big 6th form colleges in Hampshire. No one seems to go into a deprived area.

My sister has a maths master from Durham University (after private secondary) and has taught in a variety of schools - one was fairly deprived, the other three run of the mill. The one was my childhood secondary.

So do we think the schools that are “Inadequate” have Oxbridge grads teaching there or are in the SLT? Or educated at any other top 6 university? I rather suspect not in any meaningful way that makes a difference. That’s really what we are talking about. DC from deprived areas that go to Oxbridge (or similar) and then go back home and teach. In order to make a difference I would suggest they must be good. They must be leaders and drive up standards or it makes little difference to anyone.

Have you heard of Teach First, Tizer?

So do we think the schools that are “Inadequate” have Oxbridge grads teaching there or are in the SLT? Or educated at any other top 6 university?

Yes a fair few of them will.

This has to be one of the most ridiculous posts ever to grace MN.

Unpicking your statement further, do you genuinely think that better university = better teacher? If so, you are mistaken.

Also seems to think that better teacher = grammar school or private. That teaching in a state comp is a consolation prize rather than an active choice.

Teach First isn’t just cream of the crop graduates or deprived schools now, though, I don’t think. I know that was the premise when it first started but not so much now.

@Lambsandchicks

Teach First isn’t just cream of the crop graduates or deprived schools now, though, I don’t think. I know that was the premise when it first started but not so much now.

It's definitely not.

I ‘saw’ your expression then!

Ours is already 8.40 til 3.15, for which (as a single, working parent) I am grateful.

@Lambsandchicks

Teach First isn’t just cream of the crop graduates or deprived schools now, though, I don’t think. I know that was the premise when it first started but not so much now.

No, it's not just that, but the suggestion that Oxbridge graduates would definitely not teaching in deprived state schools ignores the fact that there is a scheme that puts them there.

Tizer I love your faith in a uni. My degree is from one of your top unis and yet my school is inadequate. This represses the structural inequalities of the school system. Many of my fellow staff are equally driven to work against these barriers to support children. Many have excellent degrees from excellent universities but over the years I can’t say as I have seen any correlation between the qualification and the efficacy of the teacher. I am confident that staff in tough schools thrive anywhere and easily become the star performers in better comps, grammars or private while the opposite is rarely true.

The real inadequacy is in our school system.

@noblegiraffe
I’ve very much heard of Teach First. The big issue is “Do Something Else Second”.

@Flipflopssndsocks
In that case, why would you even have Teach First? Lots of the grads on it never went near Oxbridge! I don’t think these grads are necessarily the best. They just haven’t made their minds up yet about a career.

Right, so we agree Oxbridge graduates can and do teach in deprived schools.

What does this have to do with the govt proposals to fuck about with the timings of the school day?

My school have just informed me that doing 4x 3:45 and friday am meets the government targets.