Govt extending school day by a few minutes in ignorance of how schools work

[noblegiraffe]

The government have decided to mandate a minimum 32.5 hour week for schools - the equivalent of being open from 8:45 to 3:15

This is not a specified teaching time, but opening time. Schools who are under will have to find ways to tack extra time onto the teaching day, perhaps by making lunchtime longer or adding an extra break. A school that has, for example, 20 minutes form time, 5 hours of lessons, 20 minutes of break and 40 minutes of lunch is not open long enough. One that has the same arrangement but 50 minutes lunch is fine.

Why? Fuck knows. What they have once again completely failed to do is consult schools about why their opening hours are as they are. Schools in my area, for example, have finely co-ordinated finishing times to avoid massive congestion. Schools who are under would have to consider opening earlier which will mess up buses, and screw those with childcare commitments. It's going to be logistically challenging to arrange, but of course, it won't be the DfE doing it.

schoolsweek.co.uk/schools-asked-to-offer-32-5-hour-week-by-2023-and-ofsted-will-check/

Many schools have started having half a day closing early for staff training. I guess it will affect them?

As a parent, I don't want this. The school day is long enough. But I guess no parents or staff were consulted for our opinions.

I think most schools meet this requirement already. DD was at primery school 9 - 3.30, and secondary school 8.20 - 2.50.

Just a note that the half day schools near me do not do this on the Friday but on the Monday or Weds.

And yes the argument IS for the "5 mins here or there" which is exactly why its a ridiculous bill.

"The 32.5 hour school week is equivalent to 08:45 to 15.15, with the government arguing that a child with a school day shorter by 20 minutes a day would lose two weeks of schooling over the course of a year."

Exactly! It's nonsensical to say those extra 5,10 or 20 minutes will make a discernable difference when in reality they will predominantly be added to lunch time or break time.

What would make a difference is more funding, increased budgets and enough equipment such as pencils and glue to go around. It's like sticking a plaster designed for a papercut on a severed limb and pretending everything is better now.

I don't know about a few minutes; how about a few hours. The schools around me in the west mids all seem to have chopped off Friday afternoons, and dd says there is no teaching on Friday morning at her school.

Abolutely. It's a pretence at offering to do something.

Adding an hours funded sport/extra curricular to the day would have been amazing if they wanted to keep kids in school longer/provide optional childcare.

Funding staff so schools weren't desperate to cut hours would be sensible.

Nonsensical bills like this that will cause havoc in areas where times are tied to other schools/buses/traffic over 5-10mins here and there is just ridiculous.

Our school is 8:45-2:45, my kids are always saying they don't have time to eat all their lunch so extending the day and having a longer lunch sounds good to me otherwise some days my kids are only managing what would be snack for their lunch.
Their previous school did 8:50/2:30 and again lunch felt rushed for them.
They are not very slow eaters but not the fastest either

@AutumnColours9

Many schools have started having half a day closing early for staff training. I guess it will affect them?

The early finishes are not usually for 'staff training'. It's usually to try and counteract lack of funding and reduce overheads (e.g. to reduce staffing costs by giving statutory PPA when pupils leave early - there aren't enough teachers to cover the frees otherwise). As others have said, the government should be looking at suitable budgets rather than expecting schools to run on a shoestring, reducing staff - especially TAs and HLTAs - and then make out they're improving standards by adding 10 minutes on to lunchtime and dismissing carefully planned school day timings.

This won't have been a rapid decision. Time and effort will have gone into debating and discussing it, before issuing the advice.

Of all the things that desperately need fixing in our schools, and the important issues that need discussing, they thought THIS was the thing that was the most worthy use of their time?

Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with the suggested hours, the fact that the government used their available time to make this issue a priority when there are so many other urgent issues, shows what an absolute mess the government is making of education. It's akin to painting a wall ignoring the great big gaping holes in it everywhere.

Absolutely Spiders. THe money and time that will have gone into this!

@noblegiraffe

My school is just down the road from a primary school. If our end time were to increase to match govt requirements, we'd be kicking out at around the same time and the traffic would be horrendous.

Also, loads of our kids leave our secondary at 3 and collect their siblings at 3.15- and walk them home and look after them!

We start at 8.30-3 so hopefully our times won’t shift.

My sons primary is 9.00-3.15

School should be 9-4 as standard with some variation of necessary for local reasons.

Private schools have longer days and do better for it.

Having schools finish at 2.40 is a recipe for a bored youth and anti social behaviour.

Research shows that the best way to raise attainment and improve inequality is to have DC's in school more.

I’d consider it an urgent issue if I had a child at a primary school closing for half a day, tbh.

Absolutely Spiders. It just shows how out of touch they are and how little they actually listen to those who are in the thick of it.

"Shall we tackle the teacher retention crisis? The huge funding deficit? The challenges to attainment brought about thanks to COVID? The cuts to TAs and HLTAs? The lack of suffient school places in some areas? Nah let's focus on this issue that isn't even an issue for 95% of schools and fuck off to the pub."

Private schools tend to have longer holidays, hence the slightly longer school day.

@SpidersAreShitheads they thought long and hard about what would look good and be little effort/cost for them, maybe?

@felulageller

Research shows that the best way to raise attainment and improve inequality is to have DC's in school more.

Can you send some links to this research please

All our primary schools do these hours or longer. Dd1 finishes secondary at 2.55 but starts at 8.20am and only has 30 minutes for lunch - it feels like her day ends very early when my secondary finished at 4.10pm. Some kind of statutory number of hours feels right imo.

I wish they’d do that up here and do away with the ridiculous half days (which, despite what the unions might say, is very definitely not used for training or any other professional development - as confirmed by the empty school car parks and my teacher friends themselves)

I think this in response to schools who have stated closing at lunch time on a Friday. Lots around here.

They give all teachers their PPA on Friday afternoon, so no cover required and no support staff needed. It's quite a cost saving, but not great for working parents.

Teachers love it because they can fit their PPA in when they choose and get away early on a Friday if they want to. Support staff not so much because it's a cut to hours (and pay).

Mandating 25 hours a week of teaching time would seem more sensible than merely keeping the doors open for 6.5 hours a day. You could still finish early on Fridays by having longer M-Th if necessary.

My secondary school in the 1970s had 4 x 70 minute lessons a day so only 4h 40m but had really long tutor times and an 80 minute (!) lunch break. It started at 8.50 and finished at 3.55. A long day with less than 5 hours of lessons.

My DC went to a sometimes outstanding, sometimes good primary with good results and a 9-3.15 day. 🤷🏻‍♀️

@Silverclocks

I hated waiting till a Friday to get a PPA, made the whole week much more tough. And we weren’t allowed to leave school during a PPA

@felulageller

School should be 9-4 as standard with some variation of necessary for local reasons.

Private schools have longer days and do better for it.

Having schools finish at 2.40 is a recipe for a bored youth and anti social behaviour.

Research shows that the best way to raise attainment and improve inequality is to have DC's in school more.

With the schools I have known, it's actually been better in terms of combating ASB - it gets them out of the pinch points before other schools come along. As it is, the only reason they can physically get onto buses is because they start and finish 45 minutes earlier than your suggestion - and it's still by no means guaranteed, as they're also competing with commuters. Extending the end of the school day to match your suggestion would mean the kids at the school nearest the start of the route would get the first four buses, then after waiting for an hour (buses every 15 minutes), the kids at the next school would fill them up, then after another hour, the next school, by which time the majority of kids at the 4th school on the route are waiting until around 7pm to even get on a bus. And nobody working along that route and dependent upon public transport is getting on, either - including school staff.

The best way to raise attainment and make things more equal is not to have kids whose parents cannot afford cars standing in the rain into the evening, it's to tailor the finishing times - so the least financially well off families that need to use public transport actually have a chance of getting in from school at a reasonable time.

You don't combat ASB or potential gang issues by ensuring all kids are crammed into the same areas at exactly the same time - kids from fifteen different secondary schools (and that's an understatement of the numbers) all in the same bus interchange means potentially anything up to a thousand kids all trying to access buses along with commuters in a place that has 7 seats. How long do you think it will be before somebody gets crushed or squashed by a bus? I'd give it three days.

Private schools have longer days and do better for it.

They might equally do better because they often have longer holidays. There are many reasons why independent schools tend to do better overall, but funding is probably the main factor. That and selection.

My school attempted for many years to extend the school day to facilitate more extra curricular activities for our students, some of whom were relatively deprived. This was repeatedly vetoed on the grounds of bus timetables. We finished at 3:30 - the local grammar schools at 4. Pointing out that it could be the other way round got us nowhere.

@Nidan2Sandan: "Given the neglect children have suffered in their schooling over the last 2 years with calls for closed schools, part time schooling and/or online schooling I for one am glad our school is stepping up the the plate and recognising the need for this extra care and how the schools previous behaviours have affected so many of their students."

"Schools' previous behaviours?" What do you mean by this? It sounds as if you're blaming teachers for the Pandemic when, in reality, they were shat upon just as much as, if not more than anyone else.