Govt extending school day by a few minutes in ignorance of how schools work

[noblegiraffe]

The government have decided to mandate a minimum 32.5 hour week for schools - the equivalent of being open from 8:45 to 3:15

This is not a specified teaching time, but opening time. Schools who are under will have to find ways to tack extra time onto the teaching day, perhaps by making lunchtime longer or adding an extra break. A school that has, for example, 20 minutes form time, 5 hours of lessons, 20 minutes of break and 40 minutes of lunch is not open long enough. One that has the same arrangement but 50 minutes lunch is fine.

Why? Fuck knows. What they have once again completely failed to do is consult schools about why their opening hours are as they are. Schools in my area, for example, have finely co-ordinated finishing times to avoid massive congestion. Schools who are under would have to consider opening earlier which will mess up buses, and screw those with childcare commitments. It's going to be logistically challenging to arrange, but of course, it won't be the DfE doing it.

schoolsweek.co.uk/schools-asked-to-offer-32-5-hour-week-by-2023-and-ofsted-will-check/

What is the current requirement for school hours? Or is there not one?
If you’d asked me last week before I read this story, I’d have assumed a minimum number of hours already existed, is that not right?

[quote Hercisback]@Nidan2Sandan That sounds great but in practise will be ill thought out activities and forcing kids to do MH stuff they have no interest in.[/quote]
Yes, exactly. DD and her friends find the content of these wellbeing sessions patronising and basically just common sense. The activities are not really helpful to them.

I don't blame the teachers for this at all by the way. Teachers are not mental health professionals and it isn't realistic to expect them to be responsible for the emotional wellbeing of children on top of everything else that they are already doing. It's one of those things that is a nice idea but not necessarily workable in practice.

@KleineDracheKokosnuss Its the other way here!! When I was at school primaries never started before 9 in my area and it was 9-3 usually.

Our local one is 8.15 (for 8.25, gates open 8.15) until 3.10 and I think its sooooo much eaelier/longer than it was when I was young!

Id assumed as more people work its so people can get to work.

I assume that the government will be adjusting school budgets to enable them to pay for this. Staffing, heating, lighting etc.

I agree.

The school day is irrelevant.

The teaching hours and quality of that education count.

Our local schools vary. Many start 8.15- 8.45am and finish between 2.30 and 3.15pm.

My closest one does

8.45-9am tutor.
9-10 lesson 1
10.05-11.05 lesson 2
11.05-11.15 break
11.15-12.15 lesson 3
12.20-13.20 lesson 4
13.20-13.50 lunch
13.50-14.00 tutor
14.00-15.00 lesson 5

Then from 3-4 there is enrichment everyday.

The extra 15 minutes would probably be split between tutor and breaks. I cannot see how that benefits the students anymore than being able to leave at 3?

Another starts at 8.30, has shorter tutor in the morning equal breaks.
Tutor 8.30-8.40
Lesson 1 8.40-9.40
Lesson 2 9.45-10.45
10.45-10.55 break
10.55-11.55 lesson 3
12-1 lesson 4
1-1.30 lunch
1.30-1.35 tutor
1.40-2.40 lesson 5
and each year group finishes at 2.05pm once a week for PPA. That must already be a timetabling nightmare. Especially as they have each major department do PPA each day and it runs over lesson 5 too and the other departments are split over the 5 days.

So the day they finish early lesson 5 is 1.05-2.05 and they don't have a lunch break.

For me the only reason to extend the school day would be because there is funding to provide extra curricula activities and get children involved in sports and arts and craft and cooking etc.

5 hours of lessons a day is enough.

Actually, I know that they won't be adjusting the budgets to pay for it, but they should!

I would love shorter more productive days and shorter holidays. Two week breaks every so often. But I appreciate the rules on absence for holidays would need to change.

I think its fair enough. If there is a required number of hours the school will need to make adjustments.

I’m mostly confused about when schools started ending so early. My state primary was 08:30 to 3:30. My kids primary is 9-3. How have we lost a full hour per day?

I went to a state school in the 90s. The times for me were 8:50-3:15. You can’t generalise your experience as the norm. My kids currently go 8:40-3:15 so they get an extra 10 minutes to what I did.

As the OP has pointed out. Lunchtimes have been reduced in lots of schools, particularly secondaries. It reduces lunchtime issues.

It’s teaching time that should be focused on, not how long the building is open.

Ds is usually in school from 9 - 3. He has a taxi to special school an hour away.
Their official hours are 8.45 - 3.15 so meeting the requirement.
It is the LA that will have to adjust all the transport arrangements, probably involving paying taxi firms extra to alter their arrangements, if pupils are expected to be in school for the extra time.

Tacking an extra 10 minutes onto playtime will do nothing to improve a child's educational outcomes

I’m not sure tbh. We are ten minutes short so from what @Ted27 has said, they won’t be interested anyway, but I hate our frantic, rushed, bolted down lunch.

I also agree that I don’t think primary schools should be closing early, so that’s not a bad thing either.

@Viviennemary

I think its fair enough. If there is a required number of hours the school will need to make adjustments.

But don't you think that the required number of hours should relate to teaching time, if anything, rather than just the hours that the school is open?

When I went to school, we had an hour and 5 for lunch plus 20 mins morning break. No afternoon break.

9.00-9.20 form
9.20-11.20 lesson 1&2
20 min break
11.40-12.40 lesson 3
1 hr 5 min lunch
1.45-3.45 lesson 4&5

When I was in equivalent yrs 10 and 11 we could leave the premises at lunch. Possibly in Yr 9 as well. I don’t recall.

Schools are just going to add the enrichment discussed upthread or extend break times. The latter definitely doesn’t seem beneficial when they can’t go anywhere and will potentially create more tension. The school can’t add actual teaching time for subjects. It’s not long enough, not to mention the added case load for teachers.

Not a teacher. But would ethics discussions for teens work or something else similar? I know these are already covered in RE. But could be extended or made into debates etc?

@Viviennemary

I think its fair enough. If there is a required number of hours the school will need to make adjustments.

I think it's not a great idea to adjust the expectations of teachers and ta's again when there is already a recruitment and retention problem in the sector due to the already changed and increased demands of teachers.

It's no longer just teaching. You have hours and hours of paperwork to complete which the shorter school day meant you had time to do.

Removing 1 hr and 15 minutes of that a week (5hrs a month on average) actually means you have to give up a weekend day a month to do the same amount.
Teachers already tend to work weekends.

My DD school is 8:30-2:30 and it's such a cram plus they are always late as lunch 30 minutes and breaks about 10 so not enough time to toilet, eat and find classes

We have kept shorter, staggered lunches. It works well but means we are 20 mins short. I don’t mind a longer lunch break but I just won’t run after school clubs (for free). My biggest issue is that they want all schools to be part of an academy chain-no thanks, id rather leave teaching than work for ark or Harris or other academy chain skimming off funding to pay fat cats. The tories are absolute cunts!

The incredibly short lunch breaks of 30-40 minutes really aren’t in the interest of the students who don’t have enough time to get to the canteen, queue, eat and go to the toilet (and are then banned from leaving lessons to use the loo). Let alone when they’re let out of lessons late/ expected to attend meetings) If it stops that it’s a good thing. 6.5 hours of opening time doesn’t seem to be particularly onerous and the school can still choose to start and finish earlier if they want to

My kids primary used to meet these requirements, but post covid moved to staggered starts and finishes taking them 15 mins below the government guidelines. Looks like they will be switching back!

I don't see the point. Schools are going to tack on more lunch or break, not teaching, will they not?

Laughing at busses timtabling to meet the start of school.
Hourly bus arrives 5 mins after registration closes, and leaves 5 mins before the final bell at secondary. So the council puts on free school busses and then the bus company complains noone uses them. Madness!

@Underhisi

Ds is usually in school from 9 - 3. He has a taxi to special school an hour away. Their official hours are 8.45 - 3.15 so meeting the requirement. It is the LA that will have to adjust all the transport arrangements, probably involving paying taxi firms extra to alter their arrangements, if pupils are expected to be in school for the extra time.

This is how it works in my school.

But as you've noted it's impossible to get 90 pupils on and off a bus at one time. So we are in school 9-3 but some children will be in from 8.45 and others from 9. Some will leave at 3 and others at 3.15

I wonder if the long game is to move towards year-round business hours opening (some kind of teaching and extra curricular blend, but OPEN)?

I notice intermittent murmurings about joined up childcare and education.

@Justkeeppedaling

School (state comp) was always 8:50 - 15:50 back in the 70s. 8 x 40min periods - 2 periods, break, 2 periods, lunch, 2 break, 2 home. It seemed less rushed than the school day is today.

That was what my state comprehensive did in the 1980s.

The school still exists and whenever I've been back to my home town, I've seen them coming home much earlier than we did - looks as though nowadays they finish at 2pm or shortly after.

The schools that shortened the lunch times to help sort out the behaviour problems will just be forced to have longer lunchtimes again and the behaviour problems will all return.

Isn't the issue more schools who do half days on Fridays for children? This has become more common in this area. It is a nightmare for working parents, because you can't get childcare on Friday afternoons for school age children.

Before anyone says, I know school is not "childcare", but for a lot of parents, not on high wages, the only way they can afford to work is when their children go to school.

Teachers already tend to work weekends

Yep, I was marking yesterday and I need to do some more today.
My school does more than most to reduce workload out of school but it still sneaks into your personal time.

@MelCat
It is designed to stop this. But there are other ways to do this than completely fuck over 95% of schools that have timings sorted to suit their context.