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Original poster

Your opinion on the TERF/self-ID debate

282 replies

wishingonastar95 · 26/03/2022 04:55

I'd really love to hear some opinions/arguments for and against in this debate.

Outside of MN, it seems that 'TERFs' are seen as discriminatory and generally 'in the wrong'. For example JK Rowling being so heavily criticised by the general public and condemned by the Harry Potter actors.

However on MN it seems that it's common for people to agree with the 'TERF' viewpoint, and feel quite strongly about this. I've seen lots of comments saying that they could never vote Labour based on their stance on this one issue.

I'm genuinely confused by the debate and undecided on my own opinion, so interested to hear others' viewpoints.

OP posts:
Fizbosshoes · 26/03/2022 15:37

Summed up very well above. I don't know anyone irl older than teen who doesn't back JKR. And even most of my teens and their friends think she's right.
My teen DD is totally on-board with TWAW.
I had quite a long debate yesterday with her regarding transwomen in women's sports. Transmen (iirc) are not permitted to partake in men's sports until they have transitioned but I imagine very few would because they would not be able to compete with born-male competitors. Tw are allowed to compete in women's sports (I think there is a max testosterone level) and they would have a massive advantage over born-female competitors in most sports. I pointed out in both instances the born-female is at a disadvantage. She said it was transphobic to say TW couldn't compete in women's sports. (But she agreed that they would generally be at an advantage)
DH asked DD if he decided tomorrow that he was a woman, would that mean he was, and she thought "yes" if he felt like he was and identified as one.
She also said they'd watched a video in life skills on puberty blockers and as they were (apparently) reversible then young teens or kids (of 11 or 12) should be allowed to take them. I asked if it was OK for 11 and 12 year olds to give their consent, as they are obviously under the age of consent and she said their teacher likened it to the covid vaccine where 12-15 year olds could challenge their parents consent if they disagreed.
It seemed like this was a positive thing, which I think could be quite a damaging message

ikeepseeingit · 26/03/2022 15:42

@VestofAbsurdity

I have not once said that trans people should be in womens single sex spaces. I have advocated for a third toilet for trans people. Further up the thread I mentioned that I know trans people that agree with my stance on a third toilet. That’s all I was saying.

I stand by my point that not all trans people are trying to get into female sex spaces. I have never ONCE said that it should come at a cost to women.

Okay, fair enough, are you and your trans friends advocating and lobbying for this third space or are you and they afraid to do so for fear of the backlash from TRAs?

None of us are doing anything as far as I know. I don't think for me that it's about fear. I actually don't very often delve into transgender issues because I find it exhausting more than anything. I find that a lot of people on both sides actually agree but it's all a little too us/them to actually get anywhere. Case in point with me on this thread. I have had many people arguing with me because they feel they disagree based on a small section of my text, but not because they actually disagree with the practicalities of my argument. I feel this way about most politics. There's a lot I have opinions about that I don't lobby for.

The best way I can make a difference is to talk to people openly that are my age (24) because the conversations around the issues are fraught and personal. They know me well and know where I'm coming from.

I'm of the belief that I can't be everything for everyone, and more power to you if you feel you are able to lobby for these issues.

Tabasco007 · 26/03/2022 15:46

@Sandinmyhooves

I imagine if there was a splinter party brave enough to make this their position, they’d have overwhelming support. There is a great number of left-wingers who want an option that isn’t Tory.
The SDP, is very much trans women are trans women. I've joined them recently because of this, but I'm not overly sure in the rest of the politics, I keep meaning to go to one of their talks.
DrSbaitso · 26/03/2022 15:52

I'm of the belief that I can't be everything for everyone

Nothing can be everything for everyone, and that's rather the heart of the issue. We can't have female only spaces that include males. A woman is not an adult human female if an adult human male is a woman.

We don't need to tie ourselves up in knots over the Newspeak and doublethink if we just accept that women are women, transwomen are transwomen and they are different types of human. We cannot validate a feminine gender identity as equivalent to a sexed female body in all places, without exception, without denying women sex-based rights. We can't prevent menopause or body changes in pregnancy either. Why is it only women who have to suck up the crap but unchangeable things about being of their sex?

MardyOldGoth · 26/03/2022 16:01

@User76745333

Of course you’re confused.Hmm

Actually everyone I’ve spoken to in RL is overwhelmingly in support of JKR and thinks Emma Watson et al are fawning idiots.

Everyone I've spoken to IRL thinks the opposite.
DrSbaitso · 26/03/2022 16:05

Most people I've spoken to in RL are scared to say anything on the matter and say they don't know enough about it.

But they do know that you can't change sex and that it's unfair for males to compete against females. Those who don't know much about it are generally under the impression that only fully transitioned transwomen are able to compete, including full top and bottom surgery. They are all astonished to discover that hormones are all that is required, and still with testosterone at a level that would get a woman disqualified for doping.

The fear campaign has people scared even to research it.

MarchXX · 26/03/2022 16:09

@Bobnotpop

Also at its simplest those members of the trans community who are angry at those who are gender critical have misplaced that anger. It should be directed towards the men who use transgenderism to gain access to women in order to harm them. If that wasn’t happening there wouldn’t be an issue, we’re not in anyway against trans women, we’re against women and girls being abused, hurt, raped and having their place in history removed.
Yes! Thanks for elucidating this clearly. This has been on my mind for a while.
Sandinmyhooves · 26/03/2022 16:33

I don’t think trans-support is a majority position. They spent years trying to silence the gender critical response. They know.

Violetparis · 26/03/2022 16:52

Flowers TheFormerPorpentiaScamander, I hope your life is much better now. I think more ordinary people are seeing the absurdity and unfairness of men claiming to be women whether it's in sports (thanks Lia Thomas) or in women's spaces. None of my left, liberal leaning friends and family believe trans women are women. The politicians on all sides who struggle to define a woman are either lying, deluded or cowards.

MarchXX · 26/03/2022 16:59

@TheFormerPorpentiaScamander

The issue I have with self id is this.

As a child/teen i was sexually abused. Including multiple rapes leading to 2 pregnancies. My abuser was a male relative who lived with me. My mother didn't 'believe' in lockable bedroom doors. And we didn't have a lock on the bathroom door either. (I think it just didn't have one and no one ever got round to getting one rather than her not wanting one). This means that my abuser could get into my bedroom and the bathroom when I was in it. I couldn't stop him.

He went to the same schools as me, so even though he never touched me at school he made it very clear he was there and I wasn't 'safe'. Same for youth group, Sunday school, my dance school (rightly) allowed boys so he would sometimes be there just because he was allowed to be.

Our local swimming pool had a mixed sex "changing village" and boys could, and did look over/under the cubicles.

The only place I could be free from him was Brownies/Guides. He actually told me it was a "shame I'm not allowed to help out there, just so I can be with you".
Of course these days he could self ID as a woman and follow me there too.

That's why I'm against self ID. Girls need single sex places.

So sorry to read of your terrible experience, @TheFormerPorpentiaScamander Flowers.
fleurpots · 26/03/2022 17:06

I vehemently disagree that most people are against JKR. There are a small but very vocal minority who are against her, some of whom are famous and in positions of influence.

Most people I know in real life support her/hold the same beliefs but are too nervous to say so.

Mumsnet is an anonymous forum. Some people on here would be vocal about their views in real life, but many use Mumsnet to discuss what they feel they can't in real life.

DrSbaitso · 26/03/2022 17:08

Rowling's book sales went up during all the attempts to cancel here.

autienotnaughty · 26/03/2022 19:49

@fleurpots

I vehemently disagree that most people are against JKR. There are a small but very vocal minority who are against her, some of whom are famous and in positions of influence.

Most people I know in real life support her/hold the same beliefs but are too nervous to say so.

Mumsnet is an anonymous forum. Some people on here would be vocal about their views in real life, but many use Mumsnet to discuss what they feel they can't in real life.

Because it's unlawful and transphobic. I think I'd have more respect if you all shared your bigoted views without hiding your names.
mudgetastic · 26/03/2022 19:57

Just in case anyone believes the lies

It is not hateful transphobic or unlawful to say that you believe that sex is biology is what differentiates man from women and it is totally legal to provide services and support on that basis - it is legal to exclude transwomen from woman's services

It's not the law that is the problem

Squidlette · 26/03/2022 20:05

Hang on, so if i say the following, am I transphobic and breaking the law?

  1. You cannot change sex.
2.biological women are different to transwomen.
  1. Biological men are different to transmen.
4.i am not sexually attracted to transmen, transmen or fat Biological men.
  1. I don't know what it is to feel like a woman, and feel annoyed when transwomen tell me what I should feel. It's a bit like when my dp mansplains to me.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/03/2022 20:16

Because it's unlawful and transphobic.

What is? What do you think women on this thread think that is "unlawful"? Have you come across the Human Rights Act?

MarshaBradyo · 26/03/2022 20:17

Because it's unlawful and transphobic.

What are you referring to? can you be specific

Benes · 26/03/2022 20:40

Because it's unlawful and transphobic.

What exactly are you referring to?

AlisonDonut · 26/03/2022 20:50

Because it's unlawful and transphobic. I think I'd have more respect if you all shared your bigoted views without hiding your names.

What is unlawful? What makes you think we don't say people can't change sex in our everyday lives?

I'll be out tomorrow in my witch t-shirt as it was washed yesterday if that helps.

DrSbaitso · 26/03/2022 20:56

What's unlawful and transphobic? Who on here shared their real name? Why is anyone surprised that endless barrages of threats and abuse make people frightened to speak out?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/03/2022 21:04

Are you actually called "autienotnaughy" then and if not, why aren't you using your real name? @autienotnaughty

itsgettingweird · 26/03/2022 21:05

I don't think it's the general population as a whole doesn't support JKR.

IME (I work in education) people are often afraid of voicing opinions such as TWAW because of the risk of reprisals.

But people are less worried about that shit now it's gone too far and are voicing that.

More and more people in my group are coming out and agreeing gender is a social construct and you cannot change gender because it only exists in someone's mind of what the gender of a woman/man means.

For woman especially now it's encroaching beyond just our spaces and into things such as sport they can explain and it's more tangible to those who are "does it matter".

I had a very interesting conversation with a fellow swim mum the other day (we both have ds') she was very much sex/gender aren't the same thing but convinced people knew that. It didn't matter how much I said they didn't and sex had a hormonal, biological and scientific definition and gender is something we've constructed so the fact people think you can change gender Nd that means becoming a man or woman proves that.

She said we'd have to agree to disagree. I said there's nothing to disagree about. Sex and gender are t the same, people confuse them and people genuinely think lowering testosterone to levels 4 times above the average woman's make them a woman and means they compete equally as a woman.

(This is because I said swim england were as much to blame as when on the rankings you select the swimmers gender and not sex) they compete in sex categories. (Or it looks like they use too Angry)

itsgettingweird · 26/03/2022 21:07

Oh and interestingly enough everyone I know who says you can change from male to woman based on gender cannot define what a woman is when I ask except they have ovaries and a womb.

They aren't impressed and shut down the debate when I say trans woman don't grow these things and woman who've had them removed aren't men. Wink

SmellyOldOwls · 26/03/2022 21:12

'Because it's unlawful and transphobic. I think I'd have more respect if you all shared your bigoted views without hiding your names.'

I wear an adult human female so that people can stab me/beat me/scream at me to choke on their girl dick/whinge about me on Twitter.

Bring GC is not about trans people. Its not about being a bigot. Its about feminism centering women. If you aren't centering woman you aren't a feminist.

SmellyOldOwls · 26/03/2022 21:12

T shirt that should have read 🙄