Your opinion on the TERF/self-ID debate

[wishingonastar95]

I'd really love to hear some opinions/arguments for and against in this debate.

Outside of MN, it seems that 'TERFs' are seen as discriminatory and generally 'in the wrong'. For example JK Rowling being so heavily criticised by the general public and condemned by the Harry Potter actors.

However on MN it seems that it's common for people to agree with the 'TERF' viewpoint, and feel quite strongly about this. I've seen lots of comments saying that they could never vote Labour based on their stance on this one issue.

I'm genuinely confused by the debate and undecided on my own opinion, so interested to hear others' viewpoints.

Unless you mean it's the trans rights groups who are shooting down the idea of 3rd spaces - in which case you're correct, and most GC feminists think it's ridiculous it's not accepted as a solution.

But the more you read the more you realise that for the outspoken ones (who may or may not represent most actual transgender ppl) finding a practical solution isn't actually the aim. It's getting validation that "anyone who says they are a woman is literally a woman", as Stonewall say.

@PrelateChuckles

I would hope a gender neutral space would solve the problem, it’s ridiculous that it’s being shot down.

Really sorry ikeep but I genuinely can't understand what you are proposing.

Do you mean biological male, biological female, and unisex/anyone spaces?

You're not actually engaging with what I'm saying, so I'm not "shooting down", it's that I can't see what it is you are actually saying.

Sorry I seem to be very bad at getting my point across today!

Yes I absolutely mean biological male, biological female and unisex.

I mean I think it’s ridiculous that a third space is being shot down by some trans people. Not that you were shooting me down 😅

Because they are trans/ non binary and feel uncomfortable. That’s kind of their whole thing?

Being uncomfortable is their thing?

We are all uncomfortable when a hulking great male walks in and eyeballs us daring us to react. He is not the uncomfortable one in this scenario. He can go where he wants and nobody can say a thing.

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

So women could use it if they weren't sure who was using the ladies? Or are you expecting trans people to stick to that single cubicle? What if they don't want to?

@PastMyBestBeforeDate Was the reshuffled text below not what your were asking?

So females could use it if they weren't sure if a male was using the female toilets? Or are you expecting males to stick to that single cubicle? What if the males don't want to, what if they want to use one of the 2 toilet blocks which are single sex female or single sex male ?

The individual has a need to dispose of waste body fluids in a hygienic way

There are 3 different provisions available 2 of which solve the hygienic disposal of waste.

It is then a choice between need and want.

Males have 2 options from 3. They need/want to self exclude from the single sex female space.

Females have 2 options from 3. They need/want to self exclude from the single sex male space.

The provision of a 3rd space eliminates the risk of the violent male in the male toilets.

It would help to explain what TERF stands for if you want this debate to involve everyone. I don't know what the anacronym stands for.

@AlisonDonut

Because they are trans/ non binary and feel uncomfortable. That’s kind of their whole thing?

Being uncomfortable is their thing?

We are all uncomfortable when a hulking great male walks in and eyeballs us daring us to react. He is not the uncomfortable one in this scenario. He can go where he wants and nobody can say a thing.

I was not and am not advocating for a male to use the female toilets. Sorry if it read that way at any point. I am advocating for a third space for trans people.

Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist

It's what trans activists, however they style themselves, call feminist women who believe it's important to acknowledge that women are female, and have needs and political goals based on that which male people do not, regardless of inner feelings and personal identity.

I can't tell you how heartened I am by this thread.
Thank you OP for starting it.

I find this debate very odd.

Throughout my life, I have been on the side of the oppressed. I have campaigned against discrimination and in favour of equality. I value diversity in all its forms. I believe in the right to self expression and that people should be able to live in whatever way they choose. I am not used to finding myself on the "wrong" side of these issues.

BUT I know in my gut what a woman is, and what a man is. I cannot just pretend otherwise, no matter how hard I might try. Simply saying that you feel like a woman, whatever that means, doesn't make it true and I find myself wondering if anyone really believes this deep down.

The whole thing just feels like the Emperor's New Clothes to me. Like everyone knows the truth, actually, but they don't feel able to say it. I honestly struggle to get my head around the idea that anyone might genuinely believe that a trans woman is actually a woman, and I assume that people are just saying it because they think it's the right thing to do. Maybe I am wrong, but I really find it hard to see the other side on this one as the "truth" to me seems so self evident.

The word TERF (which is banned on MN to describe other posters) often functions as a misogynistic way of dismissing anything the woman slurred by it says, ignoring her feelings and concerns and inciting others to bully, harass, abuse, threaten and target her.

There was a good example of this in Manchester a couple of nights ago, when a perfectly peaceful meeting of left wing women held by a group set up to organise to protect single sex spaces and women's sex based rights was protested by a large crowd of abusive, mostly male people, who surrounded the genie and shouted abuse at the women inside, including women speaking about FGM and sexual violence against women and girls.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

The word TERF (which is banned on MN to describe other posters) often functions as a misogynistic way of dismissing anything the woman slurred by it says, ignoring her feelings and concerns and inciting others to bully, harass, abuse, threaten and target her.

Absolutely.

I was just about to post same and you’ve said it better.

Surrounded the venue. No genie was harmed.

I meant what I wrote, thank you. It was really a question to ikeep and I don't understand why you feel the need to substitute and remove words.

Tired of Explaining Reality to Fuckwits.

It's funny because a) it was originally coined as a neutral term to distinguish gender critical radical feminists from the ones who adhered to gender theory, like Andrea Dworkin; it is most certainly not true that all radical feminists are gender critical and b) the idea that anyone who doesn't go along with gender theory must be a radical feminist is beyond laughable. Is Putin a radical feminist?

However, it serves its purpose: to be a lazy misogynistic slur that disparages the women's rights movement by invoking all the worst stereotypes about it. The "horrible man hating harpy" idea has been successfully repurposed.

However, it serves its purpose: to be a lazy misogynistic slur that disparages the women's rights movement by invoking all the worst stereotypes about it. The "horrible man hating harpy" idea has been successfully repurposed.

Exactly, so misogynistic men on both the right and left use it to sneer at feminists, as they always did, but the left wing ones had to pretend they cared about women.

I meant what I wrote, thank you. It was really a question to ikeep and I don't understand why you feel the need to substitute and remove words.

Because it was confusing the way you wrote it, without clarifying the sex of the people involved.

It’s a bit much to see it in the thread tbh

I prefer it when mn is a space without slurs against women.

Apologies but someone asked what it meant. It's in the OP.

@PinaColada123456 of course I understand why men and women have separate spaces, and I don’t agree with self ID where someone can just declare they’re a different sex on a whim. But if I’m aware it’s a genuine trans woman who has been taking hormones for years and is committed to transitioning I personally wouldn’t have a problem sharing a toilet or changing room with her. But If Lia Thomas’ teammates feel there is a specific threat from her (other than the fact that she merely exists) I agree they should be listened to and she should change somewhere else.

Someone else queried why I said GC feminists go too far and by that I meant the opposition to things like declaring pronouns and inclusive language. Things that really don’t harm or affect you at all, and are often for the benefit of transmen not trans women. So it can seemed like an opposition to anything trans to me.

[quote Tillsforthrills]@autienotnaughty

How do you propose women and women’s rights are protected in the process of men being able to identify as women? Genuine question. A psychological assessment does not seem adequate.[/quote]
I'm not an expert on trans law. My understanding is that currently anyone can state any identity of choosing but to legally be a different gender there is a process that includes psychiatric assessment. Should anyone have access to womens spaces by announcing a change in gender? No I don't think this would be safe for women or trans women.!

Without clarifying the sex? Women = women. Adult human females. You know that.
Trans people = people of either sex.

But If Lia Thomas’ teammates feel there is a specific threat from her (other than the fact that she merely exists)

If you listen to them they say that Lia reveals Lia's male genitals in the changing room. I'm glad you agree that they should be listened to and their feelings respected.

Without clarifying the sex? Women = women. Adult human females. You know that.
Trans people = people of either sex.

I do know that, but wasn't clear how you were using it as there are many people who believe it's a word which includes some adult human males. Thanks for clarifying.

Militant use of the correct words Erish :)