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Your opinion on the TERF/self-ID debate

282 replies

wishingonastar95 · 26/03/2022 04:55

I'd really love to hear some opinions/arguments for and against in this debate.

Outside of MN, it seems that 'TERFs' are seen as discriminatory and generally 'in the wrong'. For example JK Rowling being so heavily criticised by the general public and condemned by the Harry Potter actors.

However on MN it seems that it's common for people to agree with the 'TERF' viewpoint, and feel quite strongly about this. I've seen lots of comments saying that they could never vote Labour based on their stance on this one issue.

I'm genuinely confused by the debate and undecided on my own opinion, so interested to hear others' viewpoints.

OP posts:
AlisonDonut · 27/03/2022 10:11

[quote autienotnaughty]@MarshaBradyo I am specifically referring to some posters comments that trans women who have legally changed their identity are not women. Sorry if that wasn't clear. [/quote]
Do you not understand that no matter what, men cannot and never actually have, changed into women?

A real life example, people get their 'sex/gender' identifier changed on medical records. A pregnant female comes into the emergency room [it was in the USA], in obvious distress but because the identifier said 'male' she was treated like a male with the same symptoms and lost the baby.

We have sex identifiers for many, many reasons. For planning, for treatment, for legal situations [eg a women changing to a man cannot inherit in the UK - nice huh?] and these reasons are the to protect both sexes.

Do you not see that at all?

DrSbaitso · 27/03/2022 10:19

A real life example, people get their 'sex/gender' identifier changed on medical records. A pregnant female comes into the emergency room [it was in the USA], in obvious distress but because the identifier said 'male' she was treated like a male with the same symptoms and lost the baby.

I've heard about this but can't find a link. Can you share one?

(It's usually told to try to prove that sex doesn't exist, since doctors were in error about it on this occasion. Mention that there's really no bigger indicator of sex than being pregnant, and they go a bit blustery and start waffling about DSDs.)

PrelateChuckles · 27/03/2022 10:29

eu.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2019/05/16/pregnant-transgender-man-births-stillborn-baby-hospital-missed-labor-signs/3692201002/

It's incredibly sad. We either need to recognise the importance of biological sex, or really hammer down this new definition of "man" and "woman" so everyone in the world knows what it means. Unfortunately TRAs refuse to do the latter. Oh, and the former.

Deliberately muddling the meaning of words without providing clear, unambiguous definitions costs lives.

DrSbaitso · 27/03/2022 10:41

Thank you.

DrSbaitso · 27/03/2022 10:49

So it's transphobic to misgender someone, and it's transphobic not to check a man, who calls himself a man and is registered male on his medical records, for pregnancy. Got it.

We could do away with all this dangerous ridiculousness if we didn't insist that the very words "man" and "woman" should become meaningless, and accept the differences between man, woman, transman and transwoman.

ThreeRingCircus · 27/03/2022 10:59

@MustBeThursday

Trans rights campaigning frequently get compared to gay rights campaigning but its very different. Gay rights campaigners were fighting for equal rights which they did not have at the time - the right to be in a consenting relationship, marry, adopt etc. This isn't something that out another group at risk or took away someone else's rights. Trans rights activists can't campaign for this because they already have these rights. They want additional rights which do pose a risk to other groups. The right to self identify as a man or woman and then for this gender identity to allow them access to single sex spaces, into women's sports etc. This effectively removes safeguards put in place to protect women, which were hard won. When single sex spaces were made, it wasn't just the dangerous males who were kept out. But in order to keep the dangerous ones out, ALL males must be excluded from those spaces, including now the ones who say they are women. They still have the right, as does anyone, to use the facilities for their sex, but activists are asking for access to both spaces. This is not fair. It's not a case of a petty "you can't be in my club" but a legitimate concern that gets dismissed as "calling all trans women sex offenders" if it gets voiced.

The focus is often on trans women in these debates and that is simply because women who identify as men don't pose the same potential risks to biological men as the other way around, which is why we needed single sex spaces in the first place.

There is also the access to treatments, especially for children and teens - it is "transphobic" to suggest that they should explore their feelings as to why they want to transition with a therapist of some kind before doing potential harm to their bodies, apparently akin to conversion therapy for gay people. This should be a necessary safeguard - and to be honest is particularly galling when adult women are being denied access to sterilisation and in many places abortion on the basis that they can't know what they'll want in the future.

Also the changing of language - people with vaginas, people who menstruate etc. This makes language so much less clear and means that people who don't speak English fluently, those for whom it is an additional language, and those whose literacy level is poor, essentially making their ability to access vital services even more difficult - why should their access be compromised? Medical records should reflect the biological sex too, not their gender, otherwise transgender people will struggle to access appropriate services.

Part of the problem is unless you are pro ALL trans rights/demands there's a very good chance you'll get labelled as transphobic. Which then contributes to anti trans feelings. I won't pretend to understand gender identity (I'm a woman because I am, not because I identify as one, and I cannot get my head around non binary identity) and I feel utmost sympathy for those with dysphoria. I am absolutely pro people being able to live as however they want to present, I will happily use preferred pronouns or names and of course they shouldn't face discrimination. If the campaign was for third spaces id be totally in support. I'm against abolishing single sex spaces, self ID for access to spaces or as the sole basis for treatments, and the unnecessary complication of language.

I agree with all of this.

If the campaign was to ensure fair treatment and to end discrimination against trans people and to ensure third, mixed-sex spaces that anyone could use trans or not then I would be wholly supportive. I believe that transwomen are exactly that, trans and not a woman. What is being a woman if not being of the female sex? Because it's not a feeling, it's not stereotypes like wearing dresses or makeup. There is nothing that unites me with all other women other than my biology. But because I won't say TWAW and want to protect single sex spaces on the basis of safeguarding then I'm apparently transphobic. I can't agree with an ideology that seeks to remove women's rights in favour of their own. I would like everyone's rights to be considered.

I wholly agree with JKR and most women I know also agree with her. Most men too come to think about it. I don't believe she said anything transphobic at all and I've read what she said. The problem is I'm frightened to stand up and agree with her publicly because I know I'd get screamed at and called bigoted. So I thank her and think she's an inspiration. JKR receiving death and rape threats in response to advocating for women's rights only reinforces to me why we need safeguarding in the form of single sex spaces and from male agression.

And then you have stories like Karen White, and that poor woman in hospital being raped then told she must be a liar because no man was on the ward despite there being CCTV. How many more women have to be hurt? How many more women have to be raped in women's prisons? How many more children have to be encouraged to take drugs that will leave them sterile?

I think there is absolutely space for trans people but that needs to be a third space and not at the expense of other vulnerable groups. I also think JKR will be on the right side of history but that there's going to be a lot of damage done before we get to that point.

LittleWhingingWoman · 28/03/2022 09:48

I don't know a single person in real life apart from a handful of teenage girls and a couple of Uni students - who doesn't agree with JKR.

Many of the young women in their 20's that I know from similar ethnic minority backgrounds like myself are unable to speak out because of fear of their classmates extreme reaction.

The myth on Twitter is that anyone who questions safeguarding must be a "right wing white woman." It couldn't be further from the truth. But it's a lie the activists tell each other.

Mumsnet in particular draws hatred. Yet most of these hardcore gender activists are children of normal women who would be classed as TERFS but are too scared of their children to say anything.

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