Your opinion on the TERF/self-ID debate

[wishingonastar95]

I'd really love to hear some opinions/arguments for and against in this debate.

Outside of MN, it seems that 'TERFs' are seen as discriminatory and generally 'in the wrong'. For example JK Rowling being so heavily criticised by the general public and condemned by the Harry Potter actors.

However on MN it seems that it's common for people to agree with the 'TERF' viewpoint, and feel quite strongly about this. I've seen lots of comments saying that they could never vote Labour based on their stance on this one issue.

I'm genuinely confused by the debate and undecided on my own opinion, so interested to hear others' viewpoints.

Sorry for any misunderstanding

Sorry got cut off. I think much more needs to be done to protect women, the rates of men murdering women is horrific so much more needs to be done. And I'm not sure the legislation around gender change is good enough to allow for the support of trans women without it costing women at this time. But I believe society can and should do better for women, trans women and trans men.

Should anyone have access to womens spaces by announcing a change in gender?

The problem is this is already happening, by the back door. Trans lobby organisations train most of the public sector and influence policy on a huge scale. It's not illegal to have female only spaces but the onus is on the service provider to enforce them by allowing or denying access. And they shut down any objections from women as "transphobia". Nothing is higher in the hierarchy of oppression right now, in the eyes of policymakers.

You're reasonable, empathetic and well meaning, autienotnaughty. The problem is, many people involved in changing policy are not.

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

I meant what I wrote, thank you. It was really a question to ikeep and I don't understand why you feel the need to substitute and remove words.

If that was about my post

I subistute words to verify the context of the post. A poster has already used the word woman to describe some females and some males.

I’m aware it’s a genuine trans woman who has been taking hormones for years and is committed to transitioning I personally wouldn’t have a problem sharing a toilet or changing room with her.

How would you, or any other woman, in that space be aware of that?

That is the whole point no-one can who is nice and who is not, it is the reason for segregating spaces on the basis of sex, is is the reason for safeguarding.

You can consent for yourself but you cannot consent for any other woman and many, many women do not want or cannot share spaces with males, however they identify, however nice they are, are you happy to take away their choices and freedoms? It's not just safety either it is privacy, dignity and comfort do you think Lia's team mates are not worthy of that bare minimum of consideration and, if so, why?

ikeepseeingit

The point you seem to be missing is that the males who self ID as women in order to access women only spaces, such as toilets, changing rooms, refuges, rape crisis centres, do NOT want a separate gender neutral space. They get very angry and aggressive if the idea of a separate gender neutral space is offered to them. That is not what they want. They want to be in women's spaces.

The issue I have with self id is this.

As a child/teen i was sexually abused. Including multiple rapes leading to 2 pregnancies. My abuser was a male relative who lived with me. My mother didn't 'believe' in lockable bedroom doors. And we didn't have a lock on the bathroom door either. (I think it just didn't have one and no one ever got round to getting one rather than her not wanting one). This means that my abuser could get into my bedroom and the bathroom when I was in it. I couldn't stop him.

He went to the same schools as me, so even though he never touched me at school he made it very clear he was there and I wasn't 'safe'. Same for youth group, Sunday school, my dance school (rightly) allowed boys so he would sometimes be there just because he was allowed to be.

Our local swimming pool had a mixed sex "changing village" and boys could, and did look over/under the cubicles.

The only place I could be free from him was Brownies/Guides. He actually told me it was a "shame I'm not allowed to help out there, just so I can be with you".
Of course these days he could self ID as a woman and follow me there too.

That's why I'm against self ID. Girls need single sex places.

Yes it Solas. I am using the words correctly. You could have just asked what I meant by woman.

Yes it is Soals. The pedant's curse strikes again.

Oh FFS fingers..

@endofthelinefinally

ikeepseeingit

The point you seem to be missing is that the males who self ID as women in order to access women only spaces, such as toilets, changing rooms, refuges, rape crisis centres, do NOT want a separate gender neutral space. They get very angry and aggressive if the idea of a separate gender neutral space is offered to them. That is not what they want. They want to be in women's spaces.

I see your point that a lot of them aren’t listening to women. I am not okay with anyone attempting to aggressively get what they want by forcing their way into female spaces.

It’s unfortunate that the loudest and most aggressive are the only ones being heard. I was mostly trying to make a point that there are plenty of very nice trans people just trying to live their lives, I didn’t want them to get lumped in with the arseholes that are aggressive, rude and pushy.

Someone else queried why I said GC feminists go too far and by that I meant the opposition to things like declaring pronouns and inclusive language. Things that really don’t harm or affect you at all, and are often for the benefit of transmen not trans women. So it can seemed like an opposition to anything trans to me.

You're where I was about 3 years ago, @Ifitistobesaid tbf I think my views on "inclusive language" etc are probably a bit different from some others' on here - eg I have no issue with "women and trans men" to mean female, although it's getting impossible to include all categories eg female NB people without obscuring the actual message!

Most people would probably find they're way more in agreement with GC ppl than they might expect - eg the expectation that some spaces should be single-sex.

Ifitistobesaid
But if I’m aware it’s a genuine trans woman who has been taking hormones for years and is committed to transitioning I personally wouldn’t have a problem sharing a toilet or changing room with her.

So you are not objecting to a male on meds to reduce testosterone production getting naked in a room with you.

Would that include a male who has prostate cancer and is taking meds to reduce testosterone production?

If you would object what in your view are the other elements differentiate the two males?

But If Lia Thomas’ teammates feel there is a specific threat from her (other than the fact that she merely exists) I agree they should be listened to and she should change somewhere else.

Why is there a need for specific threat?

Can you list say 3 specific threats should result in that swimmer being asked to leave the communal changing room?

Someone else queried why I said GC feminists go too far and by that I meant the opposition to things like declaring pronouns and inclusive language.

Why should I make a public declaration of how I feel about my physical/sexual characteristics?

Why should I have to pretend that the male with the beard who has no intention of altering his physical body is a "she"?

What inclusive Ianguage is beneficial to women
How is cervix havers, a person with cervical cancer inclusive or people with needs?

Can you provide examples of what inclusive language benefits women as a sex class?

Things that really don’t harm or affect you at all, and are often for the benefit of transmen not trans women. So it can seemed like an opposition to anything trans to me.

Can you to explain how the removal of the word woman from legislation won't harm or effect women?

Eg. Can you offer a subsitution for the words woman / girl / female which allows that classification of humans to have a legal right to abortion?

I think many of us here have always advocated for minorities and still do, which is why we are against trans-identifying people infiltrating protected spaces that exists based on biological oppression.

When a majority invades a minority, they do not become the underdog. It is merely an extension of being the oppressor.

Thankfully I don't know a single woman, or man for that matter that believe you can change sex. I guess that makes us all TERFs.

No man or woman I know supports men playing in women's sports, showering in women's changing rooms, masturbating in public toilets surrounded by women and girls etc.

The main stream media push the cult agenda, normal people don't believe a word of it.

I was mostly trying to make a point that there are plenty of very nice trans people just trying to live their lives

So what? No-one is saying there are not, why should their living their lives come at a heavy cost to women just trying to live their lives? Justify to me why religious woman and traumatised women who already face barriers to inclusion and living their lives should face further exclusion because they cannot access the very spaces and services which were designed for their use because there may be males in there, it is irrespective how the male identifies, presents, how nice they are, those women cannot now use their own spaces and services, their freedom and choice has been removed in favour of males.

@VestofAbsurdity

I was mostly trying to make a point that there are plenty of very nice trans people just trying to live their lives

So what? No-one is saying there are not, why should their living their lives come at a heavy cost to women just trying to live their lives? Justify to me why religious woman and traumatised women who already face barriers to inclusion and living their lives should face further exclusion because they cannot access the very spaces and services which were designed for their use because there may be males in there, it is irrespective how the male identifies, presents, how nice they are, those women cannot now use their own spaces and services, their freedom and choice has been removed in favour of males.

I have not once said that trans people should be in womens single sex spaces. I have advocated for a third toilet for trans people. Further up the thread I mentioned that I know trans people that agree with my stance on a third toilet. That’s all I was saying.

I stand by my point that not all trans people are trying to get into female sex spaces. I have never ONCE said that it should come at a cost to women.

What is wrong with the terms "woman" and "transwoman"?

The only place I could be free from him was Brownies/Guides. He actually told me it was a "shame I'm not allowed to help out there, just so I can be with you". Of course these days he could self ID as a woman and follow me there too.

Yep. And if you argued against this, YOU'D be expelled.

But If Lia Thomas’ teammates feel there is a specific threat from her (other than the fact that she merely exists) I agree they should be listened to and she should change somewhere else.

He is as much a threat as any male. Saying you are a woman does not minimise any threat. It does not make men suddenly safe.

The crux is this: You can’t change sex. We have to assume that deep down, everyone knows that. So what’s the real motivation for needing access to women at their most vulnerable?

I have not once said that trans people should be in womens single sex spaces. I have advocated for a third toilet for trans people. Further up the thread I mentioned that I know trans people that agree with my stance on a third toilet. That’s all I was saying.

I stand by my point that not all trans people are trying to get into female sex spaces. I have never ONCE said that it should come at a cost to women.

Okay, fair enough, are you and your trans friends advocating and lobbying for this third space or are you and they afraid to do so for fear of the backlash from TRAs?

Team TERF all the way.
Not so much an insult as a badge of honour.

Just met up with a very old friend, she lives overseas. She leaned in and asked what I think about all this gender stuff? I said I think it’s ridiculous and I won’t cooperate with it. She let out a deep sigh and said it does sound like bullshit, doesn’t it?

98% of the general public do not like this stuff. They mostly ignore it and aren’t I interested. If it’s forced to their attention, they are indignant about it. They vote against it when given the chance every. single. time.

Sunlight, sunlight, sunlight.

I predict Labour will lose the next general election if they don’t clearly articulate what a woman is.

I imagine if there was a splinter party brave enough to make this their position, they’d have overwhelming support. There is a great number of left-wingers who want an option that isn’t Tory.