Your opinion on the TERF/self-ID debate

[wishingonastar95]

I'd really love to hear some opinions/arguments for and against in this debate.

Outside of MN, it seems that 'TERFs' are seen as discriminatory and generally 'in the wrong'. For example JK Rowling being so heavily criticised by the general public and condemned by the Harry Potter actors.

However on MN it seems that it's common for people to agree with the 'TERF' viewpoint, and feel quite strongly about this. I've seen lots of comments saying that they could never vote Labour based on their stance on this one issue.

I'm genuinely confused by the debate and undecided on my own opinion, so interested to hear others' viewpoints.

I fully agree with JKR but I do know people in real life who disagree, mostly family and friends in America. Its a toxic debate and I wouldn't feel comfortable expressing my views openly but on mumsnet I can. Its a very strange feeling because I am generally quite left of centre politically but on this issue I find myself agreeing with the daily mail over say the independent. This is uncomfortable to me and it has made me question my beliefs.

No one should be persecuted because they are different and my heart really does go out to people who feel they were born into the wrong bodies. There really are a lot of good people in this situation who shouldn't have to suffer because of it. I have no issue with people dressing as they want, I think there should be separate toilets and changing rooms and prisons etc available for anyone who doesn't want to use the mens for whatever reason.

HOWEVER that doesn't mean that people with male bodies should be allowed into women's spaces because women's rights matter too. There have been cases of rapists with penises running rampant in women's jails because of self id (Karen White). Womens sports should also not be open to people with male bodies as this is completely unfair (Lia Thomas). And there are a lot of men who get a sexual thrill from dressing as women and parading themselves around (look up autogynephilia) and having to pretend they are women means being part of their sexual act without our consent.

The problem is the debate has become so toxic there is no room for nuance or compromise. Its not a simple issue and it needs to be worked through to give the best possible outcomes for everyone however that is just impossible right now. JKR has been demonised for this reason but nothing she has said has been in anyway unfair, cruel or wrong.

@NotJustACigar, thank you for articulating so clearly. I agree with you completely and feel the same.

Not a popular opinion but I believe that if people genuinely feel they are in the wrong gender they should in the modern inclusive world we live in have the right to change their gender.

I agree that it's complicated and that trans women coming into womens spaces could/does put women at risk from some trans women and that's something that needs to change. But not all trans women are rapists/murderers in the same way not all men, women and trans men are. Trans women deserve help and acceptance and all women deserve to feel safe.

There's a lot of work to do to ensure that and personally I think feminists on mn would fair better lobbying for ways for all women to be safer rather than complaining about something that is lawful and that isn't going to change.

I do agree there should be a distinction between men who wear womens clothes and trans women who have lived as a women for at least two years and had a psychological assessment to say they are living in the wrong body. I also wonder if to be classed as a women should gender reassignment need to have taken place but I'm not sure on that.

It's a good idea to hear both sides of the story. There is a strong anti trans women group on mn and you will see in a lot of their posts (usually the ones praising jkr or complaining about Harry Potter cast members. ) that some posters will try to put a counter argument across . It is generally shouted down and the posts derail so most of us tend to ignore them, that's why they have their separate space because other mnetters don't want to read it. I've done what your doing, researched both sides and then made my own opinion and that is that we are better supporting each other and working together. Years ago black women were not accepted into feminist groups because there was concern they would weaken the cause. Now of course we know that's ridiculous and of course we are stronger together I suspect in 20/30 years time the younger generations will be same about this time and gender identity.

Because the external narrative is heavily controlled by some very vocal Twitterati and papers and a bandwagon, but Mumsnet makes its own user generated content :)

OP, here's the Break It Down For Me thread. I highly recommend it.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

It's a great place to start if you want to understand the arguments.

One of the striking things about this debate is how much propaganda and misinformation there is coming from the people who support gender identity ideology.

Many of us started off as enthusiastic supporters of trans rights as it seemed the right side to be on, particularly if you're a lefty. Many others started off, like you, wondering what on earth all the fuss was about.

But, the thing is, very little of the trans activists' claims stand up to scrutiny. There's a reason trans activists used the slogan "no debate" - careful examination of the claims they make shows them up to be exaggerated or simply false, time and time again.

And the consequences of these lies are that we are sterilising a generation of lesbian, gay and gender non conforming children, and damaging - or even removing entirely - their ability to have a functional sex life as adults.

And the redefinition of the word woman is a direct attack on women's rights. It undermines much if the gains made in the last century, and affects the lives of women.

It's such a large topic, it's hard to know where to start!

Perhaps you could share some of the things you have heard about it, and that would be a good starting point?

Here are some questions for you that may help at starting points:

1 Are you aware when we're talking about transwomen, it's not the same people as transsexuals? It's not only people who.habe had a "sex change" operation, or want to? It's a much larger group, including the people we used to call transvestites? And the vast majority of them (somewhere around 90%, very roughly) still have their penises and no intention of ever getting rid of them.

1. Do you think girls should have to undress and share changing rooms with people with penises?

1. Do you think women in prison should be locked up with people with penises and forced to call them women, even when they look and act like men (e.g. exposing their erect penis to them).

1. Do you think children who say they think they are the opposite sex, should be able to explore this idea with a therapist, to find out if actually they are perhaps struggling with coming to terms with being a lesbian or gay child in a homophobic society, or dealing with being abused as a child, or feeling out if place due to autism? Or, do you think that an 11 or 12 year old is the best judge of who they are, and they should be affirmed in their identity without question and allowed to enter into a medical pathway that includes taking take strong, experimental medicine that stops their bodies developing into adult bodies, leaving them probably sterile, a good chance of brittle bones and possibly unable to have a functional sex life?

1. Do you think an 11 year old (or 12, 13 14) is mature enough to understand what it will mean to them as an adult if they are sterile and/or functionality unable to orgasm as their body has either never matured sufficiently, or it's too painful? (These are very real risks of childhood transition).

1. Are you aware that the concerns about childhood transition I've mentioned here are shared by many clinicians and senior staff who have worked at the UK's gender identity development service (GIDS)? Loads of them have resigned and whistleblown. There is also a government report (the Cass Report) into the service going on right now. The initial report cake out recently and it's not looking good for GIDS. It looks very much like they've allowed their practice to be driven by ideology not evidence.

@VashtaNerada

Most of the people I know in RL disagree with JK Rowling although I do have some friends who agree. I think it has a lot to do with the people who frequent MN and those who choose not to. In recent years it’s gained a reputation (probably unfairly) for being transphobic which means you’re less likely to have trans activists as regular posters. To get a balanced view you’d need to find those people online elsewhere.

Disagree on what basis?

I think gender identity ideology is regressive as it enforces sex based stereotypes. There is no 'correct' way of being a woman when it comes to personality/dress/hobbies etc. The only qualifier for being a woman is that you have a body that followed the development pathway that is centred around the production of large gamates. Nor can I bring myself to pretend that people from the male sex class who don't feel that they fit male sex based stereotypes are therefore female. 'Feminine' males are no less male than 'masculine' ones are.

Women as a sex class still suffer discrimination on the basis of our sex, discrimination that we cannot identify out of, for example, my sister recently didn't get a promotion at work and one of the reasons given by her male boss is that she has mentioned she and her husband plan to start a family at some point (she is early 30's). A man around the same age got the job. If her gender identity was man or non-binary she would still suffer that discrimination as it was based on her reproductive role. Conflating sex and gender identity makes it more difficult to explain this discrimination.

FWIW I almost never talk about this even to close friends and I would dream of posting on Twitter etc as I'm afraid of the backlash. I don't want to lose my job or get abused/harassed with a big pile on. I'm 30 and centre left politically and I see lots of people who do believe in this ideology saying it's only old or far right people and I feel like a coward as I don't speak up. I have huge respect for those that do.

Magdelen Bern's videos are a great place to start, also, on understanding why many people have issues with gender identity theory.

For example, meet Alex Drummond. Do you think this person is a woman, the same as you? If not, why not?

youtu.be/JkK7zisjoDk

I don't care what people choose to identify as. I don't feel like it invalidates me. I do believe that women shouldn't have to share changing rooms/hostels/prisons with someone who has a penis if they don't want to.

@autienotnaughty

Not a popular opinion but I believe that if people genuinely feel they are in the wrong gender they should in the modern inclusive world we live in have the right to change their gender.

I agree that it's complicated and that trans women coming into womens spaces could/does put women at risk from some trans women and that's something that needs to change. But not all trans women are rapists/murderers in the same way not all men, women and trans men are. Trans women deserve help and acceptance and all women deserve to feel safe.

There's a lot of work to do to ensure that and personally I think feminists on mn would fair better lobbying for ways for all women to be safer rather than complaining about something that is lawful and that isn't going to change.

I do agree there should be a distinction between men who wear womens clothes and trans women who have lived as a women for at least two years and had a psychological assessment to say they are living in the wrong body. I also wonder if to be classed as a women should gender reassignment need to have taken place but I'm not sure on that.

It's a good idea to hear both sides of the story. There is a strong anti trans women group on mn and you will see in a lot of their posts (usually the ones praising jkr or complaining about Harry Potter cast members. ) that some posters will try to put a counter argument across . It is generally shouted down and the posts derail so most of us tend to ignore them, that's why they have their separate space because other mnetters don't want to read it. I've done what your doing, researched both sides and then made my own opinion and that is that we are better supporting each other and working together. Years ago black women were not accepted into feminist groups because there was concern they would weaken the cause. Now of course we know that's ridiculous and of course we are stronger together I suspect in 20/30 years time the younger generations will be same about this time and gender identity.

I agree with this, basically.

I don't know anyone in real life who believes trans women are women. But I think I (and the people I know) all share a similar middle ground approach. Trans women are trans women, not women. It's incredibly hard to be trans and while there's some debate over the 'most marginalised' trope they absolutely need support and trans healthcare is really crap in this country.

We need people to be accurate on things like that census as otherwise how can we no how many trans people there are abs allocate resources to help!

Biology is important though and places like prisons and womens refuges should reach single sex. There should however be proper, safe and dignified provision for trans people rather than sticking them in with their birth sex which I would say is cruel and unusual punishment

My other huge objection to self ID is that it's based on nothing more than outdated and harmful stereotypes (and therefore, unfortunately perpetuates them).

What makes anyone 'feel' like a man or a woman? If you're same sex attracted you're gay, not trans. If you like doing traditionally masc or fem activities, so what? We all do to some extent sometimes. It doesn't change our sex it's just who we are.

There is a bit of traditional masculine and feminine in everyone right? So we're all non-binary in that sense.

Yet some people like to place a NB label on themselves because they think it sets them apart somehow. In reality they are no different to anyone else.

Imo it's the new fashion, backed up by lobby groups who had nothing left to fight for. Somehow this one has got serious enough to threaten women's sex based rights.

I think 'real life' depends on where you live and how old you are. I live in a v wc area where we're mainly worried about county lines and anti social behaviour. Most people tend to be of the eye rolling tendency if trans comes up if at all.

Personally, I'm not sure how one can feel like a woman just by wearing stereotypically women's clothing and assuming mannerisms. Surely if you feel that you're really a woman, you don't need the external trappings? You just become less selfish, more aware of others and smile at strangers as you let them pass.

What makes me feel like a woman?
Being socialised as one since birth
The way my hips move
The way I don't have the same strength as a man
The way I have more pressure to look good and age well than dh does
Honestly though, the most 'womanly' I ever personally felt, was breastfeeding my babies. I'm not maternal, but there was something very primal about using my own body to make another survive.

I think the explosion in trans teens is interesting too. How many of us felt we were in the wrong bodies as teens? Awkward, clumsy, ugly. And we only had magazines and TV to show us our perceived failings.

And I also wonder how people can say they're being 'true to themselves', even basically, they're acting how they THINK a woman should be.

It's interesting watching Inventing Anna. Is it Laverne who plays the friend? Now, whether it's because I know she's trans, but I find she seems to be acting as a woman before acting the role. I don't know whether the role called for a woman or a transwoman, but in this case, I find it distracting.

Many women pointed out that allowing men to self identify into women's spaces would lead to (amongst other things) predators abusing the system to gain access to vulnerable women. Their concerns were widely dismissed as hysterical and bigoted.

www.gbnews.uk/news/hospital-staff-told-police-their-patient-was-not-raped-as-alleged-attacker-was-transgender-despite-cctv-showing-assault-in-ward/250941

Now women are experiencing rape and sexual assault. Which they cannot report. As that's bigoted.

Nonsense on stilts

There's a lot of work to do to ensure that and personally I think feminists on mn would fair better lobbying for ways for all women to be safer rather than complaining about something that is lawful and that isn't going to change.

The difficulty is that when you redefine what a woman is, you render women’s rights useless. There’s no point, for example, in stating sex as a genuine operational requirement when recruiting if anyone can declare themselves to be any sex, there’s no point in having industry awards or scholarships to promote women in male dominated industry if a man can identify as a woman and benefit from the scheme. No point in having single sex spaces needed for privacy and dignity if someone can self identify into them.

It ignores that women have some very hard fought for rights which reflect the discrimination they’ve experienced since time began. If men can identify into them, declare themselves women and change the discourse around what it means to be a woman and what women need.

I agree that provision for trans people in health, mental health, criminal justice etc is appalling and needs to change. I’d join any campaign looking to improve the lot of trans men and women, but the answer can’t be to undermine sex based rights.

For me the bottom line is that the word woman had a meaning / definition in law.

The word woman is used in many laws to protect women against discrimination.

If the meaning of the word changes then all those laws change. And in this country we are not supposed to change laws by the back door without proper debate and the people we voted in to power making active decisions which they are then accountable for.

Obviously there are many knock on effects too where it is but the law which changes but the common interpretation.

I watched Then Alan Met Barbara last night and was struck by many things but the one which stood out for me was where Alan related a phrase he borrowed from the Apartheid movement: Nothing about us without us and that sums it up for me.

I was also very struck by the fact that the government tories, obvs did not want to give disabled people equal rights with the rest of society, disabled people had to fight hard to win those rights.

If someone tried to take those rights away they would be rightly very angry.

Women in this country fought for our right. Longer ago in general but just as bravely and with real danger to themselves.

For a group of men to effectively take our rights away from us by infiltrating our single sex spaces, our sports, our prizes, our refuges and reframing our crimes is abhorrent.

These things are ours and it is not for men to decide to give them away

Having said all that, I still feel the position many hold that the tory party is the only one to vote for because slimy boris had been told what to say by his army of evil data geniuses, is very dangerous.

Everything the tory party has done, not least sunak's latest budget, is to benefit a small slice of society comprised mainly of rich white men. Given the choice I will hold my nose and vote for anyone but tory every single time. Even more important in America where the republicans will dismantle any gains towards fighting climate change.

However i acknowledge that is my choice and others might prioritise differently

Why do you have to bring JKR into your post?
Are you unable to explain what you personally believe?

Or is this an experiment to see how long this thread lasts in Chat before its moved?

You were not using TERF as a acronym but rather as a word.
It ceased to be just be an acronym and is now used the same way as bitch, cunt, twat, etc. a lable to slur anyone who objects to the gender ideological position.

On Self ID.
Ireland has documented Self ID and a clause which de facto forces undocumented Self ID because the bearded individual who has a GRC has no obligation to produce it except where the law requires it to be produced.
So far 3 males have produced their GRC in court. All 3 have been housed in the Limerick womens prison which has a capacity of 28.
The GRC comes with a trade off be legally recognised as the opposite sex and sign away the right to sex based healthcare.
To counteract that little problem women will be soon legislated as bleeders (sheders of uterine linings actually).

I believe that women are oppressed due to their biology and the socially constructed stereotypes that go along with it. I do not want to reinforce that oppression or have those stereotypes imposed upon me.

I do not believe that a male identifying as a female is subject to the same oppression as a female and I do not believe that a female who identifies as male will experience the full range of male privilege.

Women are often talked over by males, women are talked over by transwomen.

Hormonal and surgical transition has not been scientifically proven to be without harm or that the harm is outweighed by the good that it does. I think that no one should not opt for surgical and hormonal transition until this is proven to be safe.

Women do not have equal access to money, power or influence in the world. The equality movement is an attempt to address that imbalance. If we are no longer able to define women as biological females, speak about the issues that affect us, gather as our sex class, then we cannot address these issues.

I do not feel female, I am female due to my sex and I object to being told otherwise. I object to having stereotypes assigned to me and refuse to identify into my oppression.

For years, women have fought for space, recognition, share of voice and share of finances, now men are fighting to be included in that space that we have carved out. Sport is great example of that. The 2020 Olympics was loudly lauded as the most gender balanced Olympics ever with almost 50% of participants being female... but we know that those numbers were eroded by at least one transgender woman who was born male and three athletes that are biologically male, all competing in the female category.

In November 2021, the IOC revised its guidance on gender and removed the protections afforded to the female category which can only result in a decrease in the number of biologically female competitors and consequential access to funding, training, support and participation for women all three way through the system right down to grass roots level. If we no longer have to build female sport from the bottom up, protect the female space in sport and encourage girls to participate and remain in sport, girls will loose out.

Years ago black women were not accepted into feminist groups because there was concern they would weaken the cause. Now of course we know that's ridiculous and of course we are stronger together I suspect in 20/30 years time the younger generations will be same about this time and gender identity.

This comparison is incredibly racist. You are saying that black women are women in the same way that male people can be women. Can you not see how offensive that is?

Trans rights campaigning frequently get compared to gay rights campaigning but its very different. Gay rights campaigners were fighting for equal rights which they did not have at the time - the right to be in a consenting relationship, marry, adopt etc. This isn't something that out another group at risk or took away someone else's rights. Trans rights activists can't campaign for this because they already have these rights. They want additional rights which do pose a risk to other groups. The right to self identify as a man or woman and then for this gender identity to allow them access to single sex spaces, into women's sports etc. This effectively removes safeguards put in place to protect women, which were hard won. When single sex spaces were made, it wasn't just the dangerous males who were kept out. But in order to keep the dangerous ones out, ALL males must be excluded from those spaces, including now the ones who say they are women. They still have the right, as does anyone, to use the facilities for their sex, but activists are asking for access to both spaces. This is not fair. It's not a case of a petty "you can't be in my club" but a legitimate concern that gets dismissed as "calling all trans women sex offenders" if it gets voiced.

The focus is often on trans women in these debates and that is simply because women who identify as men don't pose the same potential risks to biological men as the other way around, which is why we needed single sex spaces in the first place.

There is also the access to treatments, especially for children and teens - it is "transphobic" to suggest that they should explore their feelings as to why they want to transition with a therapist of some kind before doing potential harm to their bodies, apparently akin to conversion therapy for gay people. This should be a necessary safeguard - and to be honest is particularly galling when adult women are being denied access to sterilisation and in many places abortion on the basis that they can't know what they'll want in the future.

Also the changing of language - people with vaginas, people who menstruate etc. This makes language so much less clear and means that people who don't speak English fluently, those for whom it is an additional language, and those whose literacy level is poor, essentially making their ability to access vital services even more difficult - why should their access be compromised? Medical records should reflect the biological sex too, not their gender, otherwise transgender people will struggle to access appropriate services.

Part of the problem is unless you are pro ALL trans rights/demands there's a very good chance you'll get labelled as transphobic. Which then contributes to anti trans feelings. I won't pretend to understand gender identity (I'm a woman because I am, not because I identify as one, and I cannot get my head around non binary identity) and I feel utmost sympathy for those with dysphoria. I am absolutely pro people being able to live as however they want to present, I will happily use preferred pronouns or names and of course they shouldn't face discrimination. If the campaign was for third spaces id be totally in support. I'm against abolishing single sex spaces, self ID for access to spaces or as the sole basis for treatments, and the unnecessary complication of language.

@autienotnaughty

Not a popular opinion but I believe that if people genuinely feel they are in the wrong gender they should in the modern inclusive world we live in have the right to change their gender.

I agree that it's complicated and that trans women coming into womens spaces could/does put women at risk from some trans women and that's something that needs to change. But not all trans women are rapists/murderers in the same way not all men, women and trans men are. Trans women deserve help and acceptance and all women deserve to feel safe.

There's a lot of work to do to ensure that and personally I think feminists on mn would fair better lobbying for ways for all women to be safer rather than complaining about something that is lawful and that isn't going to change.

I do agree there should be a distinction between men who wear womens clothes and trans women who have lived as a women for at least two years and had a psychological assessment to say they are living in the wrong body. I also wonder if to be classed as a women should gender reassignment need to have taken place but I'm not sure on that.

It's a good idea to hear both sides of the story. There is a strong anti trans women group on mn and you will see in a lot of their posts (usually the ones praising jkr or complaining about Harry Potter cast members. ) that some posters will try to put a counter argument across . It is generally shouted down and the posts derail so most of us tend to ignore them, that's why they have their separate space because other mnetters don't want to read it. I've done what your doing, researched both sides and then made my own opinion and that is that we are better supporting each other and working together. Years ago black women were not accepted into feminist groups because there was concern they would weaken the cause. Now of course we know that's ridiculous and of course we are stronger together I suspect in 20/30 years time the younger generations will be same about this time and gender identity.

I desperately hope that in 20/30 years time, people look back at this time in horror at the way in which WOMEN were treated, and at how close we were to losing everything.

I'm firmly in the "wear whatever you want, express yourself however you want, don't be ashamed of yourself" camp, but I need legislative recognition that men are not women. It blows my mind that this view is seen by some as "far-right", or in any way equivalent to apartheid.

I think that the fact that the words "gender" and "sex" are often used interchangeably creates a smoke screen behind which women's rights are being eroded. SEX is binary, biological, can't be changed. "GENDER" is a social construct made up of social stereotypes of what it is to be male or female. Each one of us either conforms to a greater or lesser extent to those stereotypes, so gender can be said to be a spectrum. Alternatively gender can be also said to be the means by which women are oppressed and a load of bollocks. Not conforming to society's view of what woman should be doesn't make me any less of a woman.

@materialrealitygirl

Here are some questions for you that may help at starting points:

1 Are you aware when we're talking about transwomen, it's not the same people as transsexuals? It's not only people who.habe had a "sex change" operation, or want to? It's a much larger group, including the people we used to call transvestites? And the vast majority of them (somewhere around 90%, very roughly) still have their penises and no intention of ever getting rid of them.

1. Do you think girls should have to undress and share changing rooms with people with penises?

1. Do you think women in prison should be locked up with people with penises and forced to call them women, even when they look and act like men (e.g. exposing their erect penis to them).

1. Do you think children who say they think they are the opposite sex, should be able to explore this idea with a therapist, to find out if actually they are perhaps struggling with coming to terms with being a lesbian or gay child in a homophobic society, or dealing with being abused as a child, or feeling out if place due to autism? Or, do you think that an 11 or 12 year old is the best judge of who they are, and they should be affirmed in their identity without question and allowed to enter into a medical pathway that includes taking take strong, experimental medicine that stops their bodies developing into adult bodies, leaving them probably sterile, a good chance of brittle bones and possibly unable to have a functional sex life?

1. Do you think an 11 year old (or 12, 13 14) is mature enough to understand what it will mean to them as an adult if they are sterile and/or functionality unable to orgasm as their body has either never matured sufficiently, or it's too painful? (These are very real risks of childhood transition).

1. Are you aware that the concerns about childhood transition I've mentioned here are shared by many clinicians and senior staff who have worked at the UK's gender identity development service (GIDS)? Loads of them have resigned and whistleblown. There is also a government report (the Cass Report) into the service going on right now. The initial report cake out recently and it's not looking good for GIDS. It looks very much like they've allowed their practice to be driven by ideology not evidence.

Excellent post. And thank you for taking the time and having the patience to write it. I find myself more and more irritated trying to explain why the uncritical "TWAW!" belief needs to be examined and I know I end up displaying that early in any discussion, which probably isn't helpful.