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Original poster

Your opinion on the TERF/self-ID debate

282 replies

wishingonastar95 · 26/03/2022 04:55

I'd really love to hear some opinions/arguments for and against in this debate.

Outside of MN, it seems that 'TERFs' are seen as discriminatory and generally 'in the wrong'. For example JK Rowling being so heavily criticised by the general public and condemned by the Harry Potter actors.

However on MN it seems that it's common for people to agree with the 'TERF' viewpoint, and feel quite strongly about this. I've seen lots of comments saying that they could never vote Labour based on their stance on this one issue.

I'm genuinely confused by the debate and undecided on my own opinion, so interested to hear others' viewpoints.

OP posts:
maddy68 · 26/03/2022 21:13

I don't have any strong feelings about it. It doesn't affect me so I keep my nose out

DrSbaitso · 26/03/2022 21:14

I think one of the main issues is that a lot of people don't realise the definition has changed. They think a transwoman is still a male person who feels they were born in the wrong body. They don't realise it has changed to include people who are 100% at ease in a male body and wouldn't change it even if they could by magic, with no risks etc...they just "feel" like a woman and therefore they "are" women based on that alone. No disconnect with their bodies at all, but "woman" is a feeling.

And certainly a lot of people didn't realise that male athletes need only to take androgen blockers for a while to qualify to compete against women. They assume full transition, including surgery, needs to take place.

crosstalk · 26/03/2022 21:26

@autienotnaughty

Please don't confuse sex (what we're born with bar 0.001% of the population) with gender.

Yours was a reasoned post but can you quote and cite when black women feminists weren't included in women's groups? I'd be horrified were it true. It certainly wasn't in my group.

autienotnaughty · 26/03/2022 21:28

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Are you actually called "autienotnaughy" then and if not, why aren't you using your real name? *@autienotnaughty*
I share my views on other platforms that have my name and photo. Do you?
DrSbaitso · 26/03/2022 21:30

Please don't confuse sex (what we're born with bar 0.001% of the population) with gender.

Everyone has a sex. A small number of people have a variation of development either way, but everyone has a sex. Genitals can be ambiguous, but the person still has a sex. You just might need to look more closely.

Stompythedinosaur · 26/03/2022 21:34

I'm always slightly trepid to post on mn, as I often wonder if these threads are intended only to be a sounding board for alike views.

My view is that I recognise people's right to tell me what their gender is. That I don't believe that so many people would say that they believe they are trans, and choose to live with the many difficulties that face trans people, if it was not real.

I don't believe trans folk are any more of a risk to women than anyone else.

It makes me sad that mn has become a place where bigotry is the norm. I am old enough to remember how gay people were spoken about in the 80s and the way trans people are spoken about of mn is much the same.

Birdy272 · 26/03/2022 21:40

Terf simply means an honest, logical and sane person.

ikeepseeingit · 26/03/2022 21:40

@Stompythedinosaur

I'm always slightly trepid to post on mn, as I often wonder if these threads are intended only to be a sounding board for alike views.

My view is that I recognise people's right to tell me what their gender is. That I don't believe that so many people would say that they believe they are trans, and choose to live with the many difficulties that face trans people, if it was not real.

I don't believe trans folk are any more of a risk to women than anyone else.

It makes me sad that mn has become a place where bigotry is the norm. I am old enough to remember how gay people were spoken about in the 80s and the way trans people are spoken about of mn is much the same.

Yes, I've noticed that too. People are very quick to jump on me on here if I tell them the trans people I know are quite nice. I have agreed with many of the practical points on how both sides can get along, but I will not and never will agree with the idea that trans people are somehow dangerous.
PrelateChuckles · 26/03/2022 21:47

I don't believe trans folk are any more of a risk to women than anyone else.

Can this PLEASE be the last time this is trotted out?
No-one believes that anyone's 'trans' status or otherwise changes the risk they present.
No-one.

It is biological sex - as a class - that is a massive factor in whether a person is more or less likely to be violent.

Gender identity doesn't change with that.

My view is that I recognise people's right to tell me what their gender is. That I don't believe that so many people would say that they believe they are trans, and choose to live with the many difficulties that face trans people, if it was not real.

Most people agree with you that gender is what anyone says it is. It's a fairly meaningless concept in terms of practicalities relating to sex.

What they disagree about is that it should replace sex in law, sports, prison policies etc - that, for example, a prison should be divided by gender identity (which I don't agree that everyone even has) rather than biological sex.

I assume if you had ventured on the FWR boards you would've been told this in about 5 minutes. If you are choosing not to engage with information that is inconvenient for your beliefs, perhaps take a moment to consider why.
Currently you are being dishonest about what the GC position is.

I assume you are happy to say what you think a woman is, if you don't believe it's a female person?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/03/2022 21:51

I share my views on other platforms that have my name and photo. Do you?

Yes. What do you think I could be arrested for?

SolasAnla · 26/03/2022 21:55

@Stompythedinosaur

I'm always slightly trepid to post on mn, as I often wonder if these threads are intended only to be a sounding board for alike views.

My view is that I recognise people's right to tell me what their gender is. That I don't believe that so many people would say that they believe they are trans, and choose to live with the many difficulties that face trans people, if it was not real.

I don't believe trans folk are any more of a risk to women than anyone else.

It makes me sad that mn has become a place where bigotry is the norm. I am old enough to remember how gay people were spoken about in the 80s and the way trans people are spoken about of mn is much the same.

Define "trans people"? Are you using people as a male human or are you including females too?

What bigotry are you referring to?

Eg In Ireland any resident can fill in an application form and get a GRC
No meds, nothing tangible, just promise to live in a gender. The politicians failed to define how a male lives in the gender woman or how a female lives in the gender man. There were multiple clauses about the right to marry but they did not bother to legislate for biology. The female humans who are legal males sign away the right to State funded sex based health care.
Is it bigorty to point out that politicians have now decided to remove the word woman and replace it with people with needs?

DoubleYouOhEmAyEn · 26/03/2022 21:56

A lot of posters on the feministboards agree. Trans people are not 'somehow dangerous' any more than men are somehow dangerous. The rates of offending are similar. But the fact is that some men are dangerous, that's why we have women only spaces. And we can't tell which men are dangerous same issue with men who say they are women. That why they don't belong in women's spaces. Because there is noway of telling which ones are a risk. Except if they ignore boundaries put there to protect the vulnerable of course.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 26/03/2022 21:57

Because it's unlawful and transphobic. I think I'd have more respect if you all shared your bigoted views without hiding your names

Whats unlawful and transphobic?

I say nothing on here that I wouldn’t/haven’t said in real life

Although I’m probably more polite and less sweary on here

Tillsforthrills · 26/03/2022 22:14

Astounded at how words like bigoted and transphobic are thrown about when presented with factual and fair reasoning.

The valid concerns about women’s safety and rights apparently don’t matter to some at all.

At least the posters on here agree that people should be respected no matter what gender they choose. The people bandying about the word ‘transphobic’ couldn’t give a toss about biological women and how they feel on the issue.

autienotnaughty · 26/03/2022 22:47

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I share my views on other platforms that have my name and photo. Do you?

Yes. What do you think I could be arrested for?

No I was answering your point. And asking if you do the same.
autienotnaughty · 26/03/2022 22:50

@Tillsforthrills

Astounded at how words like bigoted and transphobic are thrown about when presented with factual and fair reasoning.

The valid concerns about women’s safety and rights apparently don’t matter to some at all.

At least the posters on here agree that people should be respected no matter what gender they choose. The people bandying about the word ‘transphobic’ couldn’t give a toss about biological women and how they feel on the issue.

I completely agree about womens safety and I feel the legislation around gender isn't tight enough to meet the needs of people wishing to transition and also keep those people and other women safe. My concern is the denial of trans women right to change gender.
PrelateChuckles · 26/03/2022 22:55

My concern is the denial of trans women right to change gender.

Do you think their gender changes, then? So a trans woman isn't a woman all along?

Squidlette · 26/03/2022 22:58

BUT GENDER ISN'T REAL.

Long hair. Appropriate for men and women for a long time.
Crying. Male Romantic poets nailed it.
Makeup. Def not for ladies for a long time.
High heels. Men.
Pink. Better for a boy, as it's derived from red.

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 26/03/2022 23:03

No I was answering your point. And asking if you do the same

No you weren’t

You said we should use real names

erish asked you why you don’t use your real name

And then you said you do on other platforms

Thats not answering the question

And people have asked what is unlawful and transphobic…

aylis · 26/03/2022 23:04

Terf is just a term used to undermine a certain group of women who won’t capitulate to demands made of them,, there is no standard equivalent for the ‘other side’, there never is because they’re the default, dominant group upholding patriarchal standards. Barrackers famous post on where the power lies, who can have who shut down, and why, is illuminating.

Women first, last and overall. All female humans.

VestofAbsurdity · 26/03/2022 23:08

My concern is the denial of trans women right to change gender.

Personally I think gender is a load of restrictive bollocks, however, no-one is denying transwomen the right to change gender, the issue is that that is what they have changed not sex and spaces, services, awards, sports, etc., etc., are segregated on the basis of sex not gender, therefore changing gender should not have any impact on those services remaining segregated on the basis of sex, but it is and it is absolutely riding roughshod over the rights and wishes of women to have those services.

aylis · 26/03/2022 23:12

@Bobnotpop

Also at its simplest those members of the trans community who are angry at those who are gender critical have misplaced that anger. It should be directed towards the men who use transgenderism to gain access to women in order to harm them. If that wasn’t happening there wouldn’t be an issue, we’re not in anyway against trans women, we’re against women and girls being abused, hurt, raped and having their place in history removed.
In a nutshell. But the response to this is to deny and deflect. Which is why comparisons to gay rights/liberation is wide of the mark. LGB recognised that predatory men were attaching themselves to their movement and undermining it and so put in the work to cut them off and distance themselves. The T isn’t doing so. Activist are just yelling at women. Because the prospect of maintaining safeguarding knocks the whole house down.
tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 26/03/2022 23:13

@NumberTheory

Break it down for me
Bump
LittleWhingingWoman · 26/03/2022 23:15

"I have done quite a bit of reading on the Feminist boards but there often isn't much explanation for their opinions and it is obviously only one side of the debate."

Are you kidding me? Not much explanation?

My friend's young daughter who is autistic is now regretting her transition. She was a girl all along (of course she was!) but she's lost three years of her life to this regressive and ridiculous ideology because ADULTS on Reddit told a confused girl with special needs that she was a BOY. Ffs. Do people think this is ok?

What about the woman who was raped in a hospital and told it never happened because her rapist was a man saying he is a woman. Does this sound normal and ok?

LittleWhingingWoman · 26/03/2022 23:19

@maddy68

I don't have any strong feelings about it. It doesn't affect me so I keep my nose out
It affects all women. It affects our daughters. Keeping your nose out will not protect you.