Your opinion on the TERF/self-ID debate

[wishingonastar95]

I'd really love to hear some opinions/arguments for and against in this debate.

Outside of MN, it seems that 'TERFs' are seen as discriminatory and generally 'in the wrong'. For example JK Rowling being so heavily criticised by the general public and condemned by the Harry Potter actors.

However on MN it seems that it's common for people to agree with the 'TERF' viewpoint, and feel quite strongly about this. I've seen lots of comments saying that they could never vote Labour based on their stance on this one issue.

I'm genuinely confused by the debate and undecided on my own opinion, so interested to hear others' viewpoints.

You could pop over to the relevant boards and do a bit of reading. It seems a bit lazy to expect people to come and explain it all for you.

You could read " Trans" by Helen Joyce, " Irreversible Damage" by Abigail Shrier" and "Material Girls" by Kathleen Stock.

Of course you’re confused.

Actually everyone I’ve spoken to in RL is overwhelmingly in support of JKR and thinks Emma Watson et al are fawning idiots.

@endofthelinefinally

You could pop over to the relevant boards and do a bit of reading. It seems a bit lazy to expect people to come and explain it all for you.

I have done quite a bit of reading on the Feminist boards but there often isn't much explanation for their opinions and it is obviously only one side of the debate.

Is there data to say the general public doesn’t support JK Rowling? I think a lot of people don’t care and don’t follow any debate on the issues.

As for the general public, not a soul at my work or in my friendship groups thinks JKR is wrong in what she has said. There is a lot of support for science, respect, protection of female spaces, etc. & not so much for cancelling a woman with non controversial views.

Science has always mattered more to me. I rejected religion for the same reason.

When someone's ideology starts to impact me (and my family and friends) in a negative way, I'm going to kick out at that, regardless of any name calling.

Have you read the " Break it down for me" thread?

@endofthelinefinally

Have you read the " Break it down for me" thread?

No, which board can I find that on?

OK the short version.

Anyone can dress how they like unless there is a good reason not to. Eg if I'm having an operation I want the theatre staff in scrubs.

Being a women is not a feeling.

Women have fought for single sex spaces ie toilets, sports, prisons etc. These are necessary for the safety and dignity of women.

Under 'Self ID' any one can say they are male or female. This means convicted rapists can 'self ID' into women's spaces eg prisons and the girl guides.

Imagine if you have been jailed for not paying your TV licence and find you are expected to share a cell with a 6ft 2" person with a male body and a conviction for rape. This person has taken no hormones, has had no surgery, wears mens' clothing, has a beard but has self ID'd as a woman, because he says he feels like one.

Do you think you should be put in that situation?

Many parents, particularly religious ones do not accept homosexuality, but their child identifying as 'trans' gives them a get out clause, Iran has one of the highest numbers of trans people, surgery is cheap and subsidised by the government, homosexuality is illegal. Do you think there really are more trans people in Iran than everywhere else or do you think gay people are encouraged to transition?

There are 100 other reasons but these two to start.

FWR sex and gender discussions. I can't do links on this old phone, but you can search using the mn search function. There are several years worth of discussion and information there that you will find extremely informative.

You’ve asked generally about the topic and so it’s more difficult to summarise everything as there are different issues.

For me I used to follow lots of feminist media and when this issue became more main stream I started to see more coverage of it. At first I just saw it as the new gay rights movement and so of course was supportive but then unlike gay rights I realised supporting many of the ideas behind this movement meant it affected me and how I was to see/classify myself. I started to ask questions like “what is a woman?” - if a female body was irrelevant to it then what?- - I was genuinely trying to understand things but I never got an answer that made sense or I was criticised for asking. Sometimes people would say to read stories from transwomen and I would but all had such stereotypes of women. I just didn’t see how it was progressive.

I just felt there was a conflict of views that didn’t make sense.

On the issue of voting. I differ from some people here as although I care about this issue I also care about poverty, social mobility etc and so would never vote on this issue alone.

The big difference between MN and the rest of social media is that MN is anonymous, therefore it's easy to express opinions that otherwise could put us at risk of being "cancelled" and even put our jobs at risk. Who knew it could become so controversial to acknowledge biology matters and say a woman is an adult human female. I've had people unfollow me on Twitter just because I follow JKR even though I have never tweeted anything about these issues myself.

I never thought I’d agree with Piers Morgan on anything but he’s actually come out in support of Queen Jo.

For me, it's single sex spaces and provisions that are most important. Sex not gender. The latter is not important when determining which people have access to which spaces and services.

Removing pieces of your body, getting cosmetic surgery or taking drugs does not mean you can change your sex. Sex is immutable and to believe anything other than that is maddening to me. It's science vs religious belief effectively, but even worse because the science directly proves that the religious belief is not possibly true.

There are no subsets of women. As an adult, you're a woman or you're a man. And if you're the former, you are an adult human female.

All people can live and present how they want to as far as I'm concerned, as long as their desire to do so doesn't trample all over someone else's sex based rights or protections.

Mumsnet is great for being able to have an open conversation about this subject.

@nordica

The big difference between MN and the rest of social media is that MN is anonymous, therefore it's easy to express opinions that otherwise could put us at risk of being "cancelled" and even put our jobs at risk. Who knew it could become so controversial to acknowledge biology matters and say a woman is an adult human female. I've had people unfollow me on Twitter just because I follow JKR even though I have never tweeted anything about these issues myself.

That, and that is very much dominated by women unlike 99% of social media

To understand the debate you need understand what trans means. Transgender is a new word. When I was a teenager in the 90s there were two distinct groups - those that dressed for a thrill and those who had surgery. Today that is all transphobic. So the vast majority of people who say I’m transgender will never have surgery or hormones they are trans women for example because they put a dress on, do a head tilt or giggle. Some don’t even bother doing that. As everyone is classed the same you don’t know if that biologically born male is in the changing room at the gym with you for thrill purposes or if he is going through a process. So removal of boundaries. Which are there for dignity and protection. Although with many biological men saying I’m a woman the crime statistics currently show a female crime wave which doesn’t exist.
Now jk Rowling here quote was dress how you want but you can’t be. Well you can’t change biological sex but many seem to disagree. In fact talking about sex according to many there are more than two. Which is nonsense - you either have a body designed for egg production or sperm production - it may not work but that is the design. Look up bike analogy. I will not drag people who are few who have medical conditions dsd into it as I will not stoop that low. So yes you change gender if you believe in stereotypes. That’s the thing with this movement in my eyes it comes across as backwards rather forwards - it’s stereotypes plus homophobic and full of white privilege. It doesn’t take in to account many cultures of the world discriminate based on the sexes. For example in Afghanistan at the moment do you really think a biological female can identify as male and go to school? Do you really think a fetus can say hang on don’t abort me I may be xx but I identify as a boy? How about the little girl currently sitting in a hut at the bottom of the field because she is having her first period - she should just identify I’m a boy as it will be over?!
As for mn it is one of the few online platforms that is not dominated by biological men and many biological men do not like that. They don’t want biological females debating we should be breeding and be silent. How can have women rights if we can no longer be recognised. Why do we need to be a recognised it’s not even a history lesson it’s a current world politics lesson. Like it or not it’s a fact xx is dominated by xy.

Summed up very well above. I don't know anyone irl older than teen who doesn't back JKR. And even most of my teens and their friends think she's right.

Break it down for me

Most of the people I know in RL disagree with JK Rowling although I do have some friends who agree. I think it has a lot to do with the people who frequent MN and those who choose not to. In recent years it’s gained a reputation (probably unfairly) for being transphobic which means you’re less likely to have trans activists as regular posters. To get a balanced view you’d need to find those people online elsewhere.

My dd is gay, only attracted to women. A lot of the ‘women’ who go to her local gay club are biologically male and the majority have penises but say they are also gay women. If she doesn’t want to get into a relationship with them does that make her transphobic?

I say no, because she is same sex (biology) attracted not same gender (feeling).

Now try being a gay woman and saying that openly.

Most people understand that although you can change your appearance, you cannot change your sex. Ever.

And most people understand that single sex spaces are necessary for privacy, dignity and safety.

Certain trans activists and those advocating self-ID want to break this down. Largely at the expense of women.

It would be absolutely possible to provide third spaces for trans people but apparently this is not enough, it’s not just about accommodating them, it’s about validating them as well. If you don’t think TWAW and TMAM then apparently you’re violent and hateful.

Meanwhile, middle aged men are getting fawning adoration on the back for dressing as little girls, and young people are damaging, even mutilating themselves with hormones and surgery. The backlash is going to be immense and horrific.

Being female has material consequences. Female fetuses are more likely to be aborted. Females suffer FGM, we have periods, can get pregnant, are more likely to suffer rape, trafficking and abuse, get female specific cancers (e.g ovarian cancer), our symptoms for diseases are different to men. I could go on. This is a material reality and women cannot simply identify out of these things. To suggest people can identify in and out is a dangerous and stupid fiction that does no one any favours.

Also at its simplest those members of the trans community who are angry at those who are gender critical have misplaced that anger. It should be directed towards the men who use transgenderism to gain access to women in order to harm them. If that wasn’t happening there wouldn’t be an issue, we’re not in anyway against trans women, we’re against women and girls being abused, hurt, raped and having their place in history removed.

I am convinced that the whole “setting women against women” is a distraction created by those who feel that women are subordinate. It’s a crazy situation and we need to respect all women, and stop the divisiveness. this cancel culture is toxic.