Your opinion on the TERF/self-ID debate

[wishingonastar95]

I'd really love to hear some opinions/arguments for and against in this debate.

Outside of MN, it seems that 'TERFs' are seen as discriminatory and generally 'in the wrong'. For example JK Rowling being so heavily criticised by the general public and condemned by the Harry Potter actors.

However on MN it seems that it's common for people to agree with the 'TERF' viewpoint, and feel quite strongly about this. I've seen lots of comments saying that they could never vote Labour based on their stance on this one issue.

I'm genuinely confused by the debate and undecided on my own opinion, so interested to hear others' viewpoints.

@Ifitistobesaid

I think both the trans rights activists and the GC feminists go a bit too far. For most people it’s more nuanced. I think most people believe sex is real and important but I do think trans people are othered and seen as a threat on Mumsnet which I find hard to see.

I don’t agree with trans women in women’s sports - the Lia Thomas situation is nuts, but I wouldn’t personally have any problem sharing a toilet or changing room with her.

I also think this topic gets a disproportionate amount of attention online when it’s hardly an issue at all in real life for anyone I know. Like Graham Linehan becoming totally obsessed by it and ruining his life and relationships.

An article from the Washington Examiner:

'female swimmers have claimed they felt “uncomfortable” and “definitely awkward,” as University of Pennsylvania transgender swimmer Lia Thomas doesn’t “always cover up” in the locker room, exposing male genitalia in front of college-aged females. Thomas has been granted use of the female locker room since identifying as a woman.'

I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing a changing room.

If men can identify as women then 'women' cease to exist.

This means there will be no women's rights, no women's spaces, no women's sport, no laws for women, no protection for women, no gender pay gap, no violence against women.

We still get to flounce around in frilly knickers though. Just as long as we invite the transwomen to share in the pillowfights and pampering sessions. Goody.

I think a lot of the issues in the debate come down to how much people hold onto the idea that sex doesn’t equal gender. When the trans rights movement was coming into the forefront the community put a lot of emphasis on educating people that they’re changing gender because gender is changeable. Sex is not. That’s the unfortunate reality for trans people. I feel bad that it’s not changeable for them because I’m sure that what they would really want.

What gender means to an individual can vary wildly. This is where problems came in on both sides. Most people stuck to man/woman and non binary. Some people thought that non binary had many other tiny categories under it. Others thought non binary couldn’t exist. Some people view non binary under the trans umbrella and some just see them as ‘queer’.

Trans is not a new concept, but the way we’re defining it has been changing rapidly over the last ten years and it’s hard for many people to keep up. With the effort to be inclusive, some (biological) women feel they have been sidelined. Even if we just look at the wording I’m sure that ‘transsexual’ has been completely disbanded in favour of ‘transgender’ in the last five years. I don’t disagree with the change but it’s happened fast.

Personally I think trans people should be allowed to live their lives in whatever way makes them happy. I respect that they have changed their gender through hormones or surgery and will use their pronouns. I also have non binary friends, I use their pronouns and they used their sex based bathroom. I understand concerns around self ID. I don’t really agree with the bathroom debate, but that’s easily solved with another cubical for trans/non binary people. The argument is fraught on both sides because it’s very personal, this makes it really difficult to get a useful discourse going and nothing productive comes from the online conversations. It’s a shame really.

I have done quite a bit of reading on the Feminist boards but there often isn't much explanation for their opinions

Oh do me a lemon.

How do you tell apart someone who is genuinely trans from someone who is a fetishist and how do you tell them apart from a man who is just saying he is trans?

I'm increasingly seeing transwomen who are 'non-binary' i.e. they do absolutely nothing to look or sound female and have beards etc. We are being groomed to accept that any man who says he is a woman is and should be allowed in female spaces.

Women who are protesting aren't conflating all transwomen with predators. They are protesting that ANY man can call themselves a transwoman and be allowed access to sports, vulnerable women etc. Self ID accelerates this process. Already, at the behest of Stonewall and its influence through training and employer index, organisations are getting ahead of the law and allowing self-ID. Male reporters, dressed entirely as men have been allowed into women's changing rooms just because they say they are women. There are men who love to over ride women's boundaries and there are men who get sexually excited by transgression and dressing in women's clothes. We all know this. Cross dressing is the most common paraphilia of sex offenders.

I have a transwoman friend who is appalled at all of this. The GRC they have is recognition that they have been through a long medical process including 10 years of therapy and full surgery. The idea that a man with a beard can claim the same status is upsetting for them. They fully agree with JK Rowling and go much further. They think medicalising children is grotesque and teens protesting for 'trans rights' have nothing to do with them.

@DistaffSide

How do you tell apart someone who is genuinely trans from someone who is a fetishist and how do you tell them apart from a man who is just saying he is trans?

I'm increasingly seeing transwomen who are 'non-binary' i.e. they do absolutely nothing to look or sound female and have beards etc. We are being groomed to accept that any man who says he is a woman is and should be allowed in female spaces.

Women who are protesting aren't conflating all transwomen with predators. They are protesting that ANY man can call themselves a transwoman and be allowed access to sports, vulnerable women etc. Self ID accelerates this process. Already, at the behest of Stonewall and its influence through training and employer index, organisations are getting ahead of the law and allowing self-ID. Male reporters, dressed entirely as men have been allowed into women's changing rooms just because they say they are women. There are men who love to over ride women's boundaries and there are men who get sexually excited by transgression and dressing in women's clothes. We all know this. Cross dressing is the most common paraphilia of sex offenders.

I have a transwoman friend who is appalled at all of this. The GRC they have is recognition that they have been through a long medical process including 10 years of therapy and full surgery. The idea that a man with a beard can claim the same status is upsetting for them. They fully agree with JK Rowling and go much further. They think medicalising children is grotesque and teens protesting for 'trans rights' have nothing to do with them.

God, all of this. It's just insanity we are we here we are. stonewall have a lot to answer for.

My opinion is that someone can be trans all they want, I want them to get all the support and help they need and I will call them by whatever name they wish and support their right to wear whatever they want without prejudice.

I don’t want a penis in a communal dressing room and I don’t want a man beating women in sports because he decided yesterday he now wants to call himself ‘Jane’ instead of ‘john’

There are no 'genuine' transwomen. Dysphoria is not essential to being trans. THAT is what Self ID is all about. They just get to SAY they are women and Abracadabra, they are. That's it.

This is about men doing what the fuck they want, going where the fuck they want and removing any barriers that women have, or any right we have to object. We can't even meet now to discuss this, without hundreds of people 'protesting'. It's really fucking obvious to me what's next.

Same OP

In real life for me, anyone that talks about this stuff or is vocal is definitely in favour of supporting the trans community.

I am very muddled about how I feel on it all. I want to be kind and accepting of others life choices, I hate to imagine someone feeling alone and alienated. But I also feel very strongly about women's rights. On Instagram I follow accounts from both sides because I have wanted to understand this more from both points of view.

I have been on the relevant message boards but I do think that some of the women on there are really nasty tbh. I mean, case and point with your first comment 🙄

It’s the anonymity. Women here are more honest. You’ll find most women in the general population feel the same when given the protection to say so.

@MiladyBerserko what do you think is next?

The only person I've discussed it with said 'didn't JKR say some bad things?' But didn't know what JKR had actually said.

@Ifitistobesaid

I think both the trans rights activists and the GC feminists go a bit too far. For most people it’s more nuanced. I think most people believe sex is real and important but I do think trans people are othered and seen as a threat on Mumsnet which I find hard to see.

I don’t agree with trans women in women’s sports - the Lia Thomas situation is nuts, but I wouldn’t personally have any problem sharing a toilet or changing room with her.

I also think this topic gets a disproportionate amount of attention online when it’s hardly an issue at all in real life for anyone I know. Like Graham Linehan becoming totally obsessed by it and ruining his life and relationships.

@Ifitistobesaid Why do you suppose we have the sexes segregated ie womens toilets and mens toilets, Ifitistobesaid ? Why? Why do we have womens toilets? Are you aware that Thomas has a penis and testicles, and often walks around naked in front of the other female swimmers? Were you aware of that? Are you aware of the attacks on women in women's toilets, by men? Have you done any research on this at all? Do you know why our foresisters fought for these womens spaces, in the first place?

I would have been a trans Ally until I really thought about the Hampstead ponds.
Three ponds, male, female, mixed. Campaigns and celebrations that men with female gender identities can now access any of the three, choose from all three. Women from minority religions can now access none. Women traumatised by men can now access none.

I had to think about whether I could call myself a feminist if I prioritised feminine men over vulnerable women.

Trans rights do not exist in this alternate universe where women have equal rights and choose to have female things for a bit of pink, fluffy fun. The middle classes pushing all the "you can pee next to me," narrative are not the ones suffering from the sharp end of female oppression.

However, if I was in the US, where a lot of the Twitter comments are taken in a US context, I'd feel differently. They don't have adequate provision for people around gender identity and the campaign is different. They see anything not fully supportive as right wing.

wouldn’t personally have any problem sharing a toilet or changing room with her.

You'd be ok with Lia revealing their male body parts around you, as has been alleged by some of Lia's teammates?

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10445679/amp/Lia-Thomas-UPenn-teammate-says-trans-swimmer-doesnt-cover-genitals-locker-room.html

However, if I was in the US, where a lot of the Twitter comments are taken in a US context, I'd feel differently. They don't have adequate provision for people around gender identity and the campaign is different. They see anything not fully supportive as right wing.

The political and media landscape is very different, but US people assume everywhere works like the US and so they think they know what they are talking about when they "analyse" the situation in the U.K.

"Outside of MN" is a big place. Socially, culturally and professionally, my experience intersects with many groups.
Many colleagues, and allied professionals in my sector, have grave reservations and concerns about gender ideology and self id. It's inevitable in my field. But few feel able to express their views publicly, in places where it contributes to public debate, such as on social media, as the potential consequences for reputation and employment are great. Activists who monitor social media accounts of openly gender critical public figures are known to identify 'wrong-thinkers' in certain areas of employment, based on follows and likes, and contact their employers requesting dismissal or disciplinary procedures. This is of course vexatious, but in sectors where allegations are never dismissed at face value but trigger investigation, it is time consuming and stressful.
In the workplace, things are different. Colleagues know what constitutes good practice.

The problem is that people think a trans person is someone of one sex who very badly wants to be, to be seen as, and treated as, the opposite sex - sometimes so badly that their mental health depends on it.

That's no longer the definition.
We now have this indefinable thing called "gender identity", which many people insist we all have, which is some nebulous idea of what sex we "feel like" or "identify as", regardless of the fact that "sex" just means which type of body you have. To "feel like" a sex requires you to buy into the idea that one's sex also dictates feelings, characteristics, personality, femininity or masculinity, etc. Which it doesn't.

So a trans woman has always been a woman, regardless of whether they ever had any gender dysphoria, were masculinity personified their whole life, etc - if they say they are a woman, they are a woman. Yet cannot actually say what a woman is.

There is a lot of logical inconsistency, dishonesty and refusal to answer basic questions.
Whereas the gender critical feminists believe that gender, as sex role stereotypes, are largely harmful, and that women are currently, and have been historically, oppressed because they have female bodies, not because of how feminine they are.

Women are a class of people who are being killed at a rate of two a week. And this has been the case for as long as i can remember. It's background noise, it's not a cool cause, but it's happening. Because they are female and because of the disgusting misogynistic shite men are being brought up to believe about women.

@autienotnaughty

Not a popular opinion but I believe that if people genuinely feel they are in the wrong gender they should in the modern inclusive world we live in have the right to change their gender.

I agree that it's complicated and that trans women coming into womens spaces could/does put women at risk from some trans women and that's something that needs to change. But not all trans women are rapists/murderers in the same way not all men, women and trans men are. Trans women deserve help and acceptance and all women deserve to feel safe.

There's a lot of work to do to ensure that and personally I think feminists on mn would fair better lobbying for ways for all women to be safer rather than complaining about something that is lawful and that isn't going to change.

I do agree there should be a distinction between men who wear womens clothes and trans women who have lived as a women for at least two years and had a psychological assessment to say they are living in the wrong body. I also wonder if to be classed as a women should gender reassignment need to have taken place but I'm not sure on that.

It's a good idea to hear both sides of the story. There is a strong anti trans women group on mn and you will see in a lot of their posts (usually the ones praising jkr or complaining about Harry Potter cast members. ) that some posters will try to put a counter argument across . It is generally shouted down and the posts derail so most of us tend to ignore them, that's why they have their separate space because other mnetters don't want to read it. I've done what your doing, researched both sides and then made my own opinion and that is that we are better supporting each other and working together. Years ago black women were not accepted into feminist groups because there was concern they would weaken the cause. Now of course we know that's ridiculous and of course we are stronger together I suspect in 20/30 years time the younger generations will be same about this time and gender identity.

What do you mean by "gender" in your first sentence? Do you mean biological sex, or something else - if so, what?

Terf clearly means just a sane, logical person.

when I was asking similar "what the hell is going on?" Question several years ago a MN'er directed me to this site - it's a good place to start still:

sexandgenderintro.com/

I have a trans woman neighbour. This person is in their sixties, wears high-heeled shoes, fishnets and low cut tops over a hairy chest. Do I have a problem with this person? No. Do I think this person is the same sex as me and my daughter? Of course not. People seem to get confused over what counts as real trans - if someone passes is that ok? I think it's really very simple. If you think men can become women then that has to apply to everyone including my neighbour. Personally, I don't think that's true and it certainly isn't fair.

@Ifitistobesaid so if you are biologically female you have no issue with stripping naked in front of a person with a penis which Thomas has? Well good for you but many on the team don’t and yet they have been told to or they are transphobic. Is that right?

IKeepSeeingIt, you wrote that’s easily solved with another cubical for trans/non binary people.
Those cubicles would not be used. Trans activists call for validation; this means unswerving acknowledgement that TWAW and as such use single sex spaces. Third spaces are definitely not part of the plan. It would also put biological females identifying as males (transmen) in a position of having to use the same toilets as biological males.