Your opinion on the TERF/self-ID debate

[wishingonastar95]

I'd really love to hear some opinions/arguments for and against in this debate.

Outside of MN, it seems that 'TERFs' are seen as discriminatory and generally 'in the wrong'. For example JK Rowling being so heavily criticised by the general public and condemned by the Harry Potter actors.

However on MN it seems that it's common for people to agree with the 'TERF' viewpoint, and feel quite strongly about this. I've seen lots of comments saying that they could never vote Labour based on their stance on this one issue.

I'm genuinely confused by the debate and undecided on my own opinion, so interested to hear others' viewpoints.

I want women and girls to be protected and not be in fear that someone will assault them or intimidate them.

I want lesbians to be respected and feel able to be open about this.

That means that self-ID is not acceptable to me, because it allows someone to declare they are a woman, perhaps only in certain situations, to harm, stare or otherwise invade women only spaces.

I don't want the different physical and mental health issues a trans woman or a trans man could face compared with a woman or man to be ignored.

I think the current procedure for changing from legally being a man to being a woman probably needs reform. Most legal procedures are lengthy in any case, which is no defence.

There are really to me only three areas where this should matter, women only spaces such as changing rooms, medical procedures, and competitive sport. There are others where I think there is perhaps no great need to state male or female, for example when ordering a book or a theatre ticket.

@GCAcademic... thanks for picking up on that. It is a poorly thought out argument thrown at women to silence them. The suffragette movement was at its height when power was overwhelmingly in the hands of white people and while there were racist elements to the feminist movement in the US, the UK suffragette movement did not seek to advocate for votes for white women only, Tey campaigned for votes for all women.

Racism and patriarchy were dominated by males... these arguments are set to divide females by any means rather than recognising the truth in the situation.

I don’t believe in God, but I’m happy to do whatever for those that have a belief, and those that pretend to have a belief to their peers.
I’m happy for someone to say they are transgender, and will respect that. But don’t tell me that I must believe that there is a God, or that people can change sex.
I have my own beliefs, so surely they should be respected, just as I respect others.

@balalake

I want women and girls to be protected and not be in fear that someone will assault them or intimidate them.

I want lesbians to be respected and feel able to be open about this.

That means that self-ID is not acceptable to me, because it allows someone to declare they are a woman, perhaps only in certain situations, to harm, stare or otherwise invade women only spaces.

I don't want the different physical and mental health issues a trans woman or a trans man could face compared with a woman or man to be ignored.

I think the current procedure for changing from legally being a man to being a woman probably needs reform. Most legal procedures are lengthy in any case, which is no defence.

There are really to me only three areas where this should matter, women only spaces such as changing rooms, medical procedures, and competitive sport. There are others where I think there is perhaps no great need to state male or female, for example when ordering a book or a theatre ticket.

Sport could go totally non gender so based on weight/ muscle mass/height etc Changing rooms - individual all the way

For me the big concerns are hospitals, prisons and most importantly womens refuges I don't see an easy solution

There's a lot of work to do to ensure that and personally I think feminists on mn would fair better lobbying for ways for all women to be safer rather than complaining about something that is lawful and that isn't going to change.

Now, when you say 'women' who do you mean exactly?

Kind of hard to lobby for something for 'women' when you we mean women and you mean women and men.

Quite Alison. Transwomen are men not women otherwise what are they transitioning from? My feminism is not about campaigning for men

Have you heard of ‘social contagion’?
That’s what is happening to our teenagers.
One of their cheerleaders is a wealthy white Nan who has all the privilege of his male body (fatherhood, athleticism, sexual function) but now a TV show has promoted the journey of a gay child who has gone through invasive surgery leaving his/her body without sexual function and incontinent.

Also: follow the money. Big pharma NEEDS kids to be trans and rely on medication for the rest of their lives.

When you wonder why some politicians cannot define words any more, you need to look at their donor list.

Esp Lib Dems. As a random example.

This didn't just happen due to random changes in how people view other people, this is a very carefully driven top down campaign.

I do wonder if the ones that have been hoodwinked ever think 'I do wonder why it is that males that transition get awards for 'woman of the year' whilst females that transition get applauded as the 'first man to have a baby''. I'm sure one day the penny will drop.

@PamDenick

Also: follow the money. Big pharma NEEDS kids to be trans and rely on medication for the rest of their lives.

Sales and marketing 101 - create a need.

@autienotnaughty

Not a popular opinion but I believe that if people genuinely feel they are in the wrong gender they should in the modern inclusive world we live in have the right to change their gender.

I agree that it's complicated and that trans women coming into womens spaces could/does put women at risk from some trans women and that's something that needs to change. But not all trans women are rapists/murderers in the same way not all men, women and trans men are. Trans women deserve help and acceptance and all women deserve to feel safe.

There's a lot of work to do to ensure that and personally I think feminists on mn would fair better lobbying for ways for all women to be safer rather than complaining about something that is lawful and that isn't going to change.

I do agree there should be a distinction between men who wear womens clothes and trans women who have lived as a women for at least two years and had a psychological assessment to say they are living in the wrong body. I also wonder if to be classed as a women should gender reassignment need to have taken place but I'm not sure on that.

It's a good idea to hear both sides of the story. There is a strong anti trans women group on mn and you will see in a lot of their posts (usually the ones praising jkr or complaining about Harry Potter cast members. ) that some posters will try to put a counter argument across . It is generally shouted down and the posts derail so most of us tend to ignore them, that's why they have their separate space because other mnetters don't want to read it. I've done what your doing, researched both sides and then made my own opinion and that is that we are better supporting each other and working together. Years ago black women were not accepted into feminist groups because there was concern they would weaken the cause. Now of course we know that's ridiculous and of course we are stronger together I suspect in 20/30 years time the younger generations will be same about this time and gender identity.

Of course not all transwomen are sexual predators. Not all other men are either. But enough men are that they pose a significant risk to women, thus we need single sex prisons, refuges, changing rooms etc to ensure women's privacy, dignity and safety. Transwomen are biologically male and they retain male patterns of criminality even after transition (that's if they physically transition at all; most don't). If men are considered enough of a risk to women that we need single sex spaces then transwomen need to be excluded from those spaces also, because they are also men. If transwomen should be welcomed into women's spaces because 'not all transwomen are like that' then by that logic all men should be welcome (afterall, not all men are like that) and there's no need for single sex spaces at all.

I think it is very telling that TRAs reject the idea of a third space for transpeople, no, it's specifically women's services they want access to. It's has nothing to do with their safety and everything to do with wanting validation.

It is currently lawful to exclude transgender women from some female spaces

This is often overlooked , women are bullied into accepting transgender women

The issue of self id in isolation would probably not be an issue if single
Sex spaces were being respected

Ie if self Id simply meant changes in your passport and gas bills and government approval to wear a dress it wouldn't matter

But it's being used to force sex on lesbians , it's being used to take womens place on the podium, it's being used in changing rooms in ways that make women very uncomfortable and it's being used to commit sexual offences. AFAIK by people who currently don't have a GRC but do self ID a as trans.

And it's being used in ways that lead to sterilisation of autistic and none conforming troubled girls

@autienotnaughty

Not a popular opinion but I believe that if people genuinely feel they are in the wrong gender they should in the modern inclusive world we live in have the right to change their gender.

I agree that it's complicated and that trans women coming into womens spaces could/does put women at risk from some trans women and that's something that needs to change. But not all trans women are rapists/murderers in the same way not all men, women and trans men are. Trans women deserve help and acceptance and all women deserve to feel safe.

There's a lot of work to do to ensure that and personally I think feminists on mn would fair better lobbying for ways for all women to be safer rather than complaining about something that is lawful and that isn't going to change.

I do agree there should be a distinction between men who wear womens clothes and trans women who have lived as a women for at least two years and had a psychological assessment to say they are living in the wrong body. I also wonder if to be classed as a women should gender reassignment need to have taken place but I'm not sure on that.

It's a good idea to hear both sides of the story. There is a strong anti trans women group on mn and you will see in a lot of their posts (usually the ones praising jkr or complaining about Harry Potter cast members. ) that some posters will try to put a counter argument across . It is generally shouted down and the posts derail so most of us tend to ignore them, that's why they have their separate space because other mnetters don't want to read it. I've done what your doing, researched both sides and then made my own opinion and that is that we are better supporting each other and working together. Years ago black women were not accepted into feminist groups because there was concern they would weaken the cause. Now of course we know that's ridiculous and of course we are stronger together I suspect in 20/30 years time the younger generations will be same about this time and gender identity.

Dear me, agist, transphobic and racist.

Oh what a surprise, the OP has posted and run...

I think both the trans rights activists and the GC feminists go a bit too far. For most people it’s more nuanced. I think most people believe sex is real and important but I do think trans people are othered and seen as a threat on Mumsnet which I find hard to see.

I don’t agree with trans women in women’s sports - the Lia Thomas situation is nuts, but I wouldn’t personally have any problem sharing a toilet or changing room with her.

I also think this topic gets a disproportionate amount of attention online when it’s hardly an issue at all in real life for anyone I know. Like Graham Linehan becoming totally obsessed by it and ruining his life and relationships.

I don't think most on the feminist board see transwomen as any more a threat than men

I do see that people see that men
Purporting to be transgender would be more of a threat than other men ( including genuine transgender ones )

It's hard to tell the two groups apart

It's utterly ridiculous. It's biologically impossible to change from being a man to a women. It's impossible to "feel" like the opposite sex - men/women don't think or feel in a homogenous uniform way as an group entity.

It's also really confusing for poor teenagers who already find life confusing, it's unfair in sport and puts women at risk.

90% of my friends also feel the same way.

I personally think redefining ‘women’ to mean “women and men who feel like women” thereby removing everything that was previously for ‘women of the adult human female’ kind and replacing it with being for ‘adult human females and men who feel like women’ is pretty bloody fundamental!

Strange how other protected characteristics aren’t up for redefinition isn’t it?

@Ifitistobesaid

I think both the trans rights activists and the GC feminists go a bit too far. For most people it’s more nuanced. I think most people believe sex is real and important but I do think trans people are othered and seen as a threat on Mumsnet which I find hard to see.

I don’t agree with trans women in women’s sports - the Lia Thomas situation is nuts, but I wouldn’t personally have any problem sharing a toilet or changing room with her.

I also think this topic gets a disproportionate amount of attention online when it’s hardly an issue at all in real life for anyone I know. Like Graham Linehan becoming totally obsessed by it and ruining his life and relationships.

A - how exactly do we go 'too far'? Wanting women and girls to be safe and respected is 'too far'? Geez Louise.

B - he gets his penis out and in the words of the girls that have to share with him, he still gets excited about it. Some may take this to mean an erection. Some may not. But by all means, you hand over the girls rights to change without a penis there, that's just so great of you. Have some to celebrate.

C - it ruined GL's life because a trans activist posted his wife's address on line and kept reporting him to the police. Note, anyone can report anyone to the police for anything, it doesn't mean anything extually happened. I mean, if I posted your address on line and people were then piling on to threaten you for your opinions, I assume you'd be absolutely fine with that?

@Ifitistobesaid

I think both the trans rights activists and the GC feminists go a bit too far. For most people it’s more nuanced. I think most people believe sex is real and important but I do think trans people are othered and seen as a threat on Mumsnet which I find hard to see.

I don’t agree with trans women in women’s sports - the Lia Thomas situation is nuts, but I wouldn’t personally have any problem sharing a toilet or changing room with her.

I also think this topic gets a disproportionate amount of attention online when it’s hardly an issue at all in real life for anyone I know. Like Graham Linehan becoming totally obsessed by it and ruining his life and relationships.

Note it is the TRAs who picket and shout threats at women's meetings, not the women.

Even if you don't mind sharing a toilet or changing room with LT, surely you accept that women have the right to share such situations with male bodied people?

This doesn't get a disproportionate amount of attention online. It is just that MN is one of the very very few places that have permitted debate.

Trans people have all the employment, healthcare, housing, benefits etc rights as everyone else in the UK. What they don't have the right to, is entry into spaces/occupations specifically covered under single sex exemptions.

Lets 'be kind' to female sports, refuges, prisons, hospital beds, chaperoning. Lets 'be kind' to women who want to keep their privacy and dignity in changing rooms & toilets.

Some women might be fine sharing a changing room with Lia. Even though Lia's team mates have reported that Lia's male anatomy is intact and functional, and Lia frequently lets the towel slip. Lia is apparantly still attracted to women and appears to enjoy being in a changing room with them.
My argument is that even if some women are happy with that, they have no right to say that all women should agree.

@autienotnaughty

Not a popular opinion but I believe that if people genuinely feel they are in the wrong gender they should in the modern inclusive world we live in have the right to change their gender.

I agree that it's complicated and that trans women coming into womens spaces could/does put women at risk from some trans women and that's something that needs to change. But not all trans women are rapists/murderers in the same way not all men, women and trans men are. Trans women deserve help and acceptance and all women deserve to feel safe.

There's a lot of work to do to ensure that and personally I think feminists on mn would fair better lobbying for ways for all women to be safer rather than complaining about something that is lawful and that isn't going to change.

I do agree there should be a distinction between men who wear womens clothes and trans women who have lived as a women for at least two years and had a psychological assessment to say they are living in the wrong body. I also wonder if to be classed as a women should gender reassignment need to have taken place but I'm not sure on that.

It's a good idea to hear both sides of the story. There is a strong anti trans women group on mn and you will see in a lot of their posts (usually the ones praising jkr or complaining about Harry Potter cast members. ) that some posters will try to put a counter argument across . It is generally shouted down and the posts derail so most of us tend to ignore them, that's why they have their separate space because other mnetters don't want to read it. I've done what your doing, researched both sides and then made my own opinion and that is that we are better supporting each other and working together. Years ago black women were not accepted into feminist groups because there was concern they would weaken the cause. Now of course we know that's ridiculous and of course we are stronger together I suspect in 20/30 years time the younger generations will be same about this time and gender identity.

The thing is, you have already questioned what it constitutes to be trans, should they have counselling, SRS, have lived as the opposite sec for two years, have followed this debate for around 3 years now, and I have realised that unless you are fully in TWAW in every respect, including a elf ID, a man say he is a women, even with beard and penis, the TRA's will never be happy. It doesn't work to say well, that group of TW over there are allowed access to womens spaces and sport, cos they seem more invested with their efforts etc, but those TW over there aren't, cos that open the door for a heck of a lot of discrimination cases. It seems to me the whole movement is very much TWAW, and you have to accept it in its entirety, along with self ID, or we have to be 'bigots' and push back as we don't want men in womens sport ruined, rapists in womens prisons, and people with penises changing in front of us and our children. The more I have followed this I have realised there can't be a compromise cos the 'trans' lobby, wouldn't be satisfied. Also we need to seriously question how sensible it is, telling young children that they can change sex, only doing positive affirmation, instead of the old school watchful waiting, and making watching waiting a criminal act - I mean that sounds crazy to say, but as far as I understand it, that's what's happening in Canada, and very much could be on its way here.

@autienotnaughty

Not a popular opinion but I believe that if people genuinely feel they are in the wrong gender they should in the modern inclusive world we live in have the right to change their gender.

I agree that it's complicated and that trans women coming into womens spaces could/does put women at risk from some trans women and that's something that needs to change. But not all trans women are rapists/murderers in the same way not all men, women and trans men are. Trans women deserve help and acceptance and all women deserve to feel safe.

There's a lot of work to do to ensure that and personally I think feminists on mn would fair better lobbying for ways for all women to be safer rather than complaining about something that is lawful and that isn't going to change.

I do agree there should be a distinction between men who wear womens clothes and trans women who have lived as a women for at least two years and had a psychological assessment to say they are living in the wrong body. I also wonder if to be classed as a women should gender reassignment need to have taken place but I'm not sure on that.

It's a good idea to hear both sides of the story. There is a strong anti trans women group on mn and you will see in a lot of their posts (usually the ones praising jkr or complaining about Harry Potter cast members. ) that some posters will try to put a counter argument across . It is generally shouted down and the posts derail so most of us tend to ignore them, that's why they have their separate space because other mnetters don't want to read it. I've done what your doing, researched both sides and then made my own opinion and that is that we are better supporting each other and working together. Years ago black women were not accepted into feminist groups because there was concern they would weaken the cause. Now of course we know that's ridiculous and of course we are stronger together I suspect in 20/30 years time the younger generations will be same about this time and gender identity.

I should also say that I do agree, that adults that have major issues with their gender, undergone counselling etc, should very much be able to live as they want and be supported, old school transsexuals, as I remember them, but will think of them and refer to them, as trans women, or trans identified men, or their name if I know them.

If you are one of those women saying you have no problem sharing a toilet/changing room/hospital room/other space with a transwoman then you should consider yourself very privileged.

Women who have been raped/sexually abused/experienced domestic violence/feel threatened by men for other reasons don't have that privilege and your feelings should not take precedence over theirs.

I keep seeing people mention 'genuine transwomen'. Can someone explain what a genuine transwoman is please, and how we decide who is genuine and who is non genuine? Because the whole point of self identification is that all you have to do to become the opposite gender is say you are. That's it. You don't have to be physically transitioning to the opposite gender or intending to. You don't have to dress or look or present as a stereotypical male or female, there are plenty of transwomen who are very proud of their beards and 'girl dicks'. You don't have to change anything about yourself. If you say you're transgender then you are a genuine transperson, that's it. That's the entire point of self ID. Bit convenient to claim that any transwomen who is a sexual predator is 'not a genuine trans'. Transwomen continue to commit crime at the same rate as other men, so if we know there are a significant number of males who commit violent and sexual crime (enough to justify needing single sex spaces) then it follows that there will be a significant number of transwomen who do so also. It is incredibly gaslighting to tell women that the transwoman who assaulted her wasn't a 'true trans' and that she would be bigoted to consider transwomen any risk to her.