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Original poster

Your opinion on the TERF/self-ID debate

282 replies

wishingonastar95 · 26/03/2022 04:55

I'd really love to hear some opinions/arguments for and against in this debate.

Outside of MN, it seems that 'TERFs' are seen as discriminatory and generally 'in the wrong'. For example JK Rowling being so heavily criticised by the general public and condemned by the Harry Potter actors.

However on MN it seems that it's common for people to agree with the 'TERF' viewpoint, and feel quite strongly about this. I've seen lots of comments saying that they could never vote Labour based on their stance on this one issue.

I'm genuinely confused by the debate and undecided on my own opinion, so interested to hear others' viewpoints.

OP posts:
PastMyBestBeforeDate · 26/03/2022 11:51

So women could use it if they weren't sure who was using the ladies? Or are you expecting trans people to stick to that single cubicle? What if they don't want to?

ikeepseeingit · 26/03/2022 11:55

@PrelateChuckles

Anyone who feels comfortable to use a single gender neutral toilet should. That’s why it’s a single room. So that anyone can use it without fear or judgment.

So a clearly male person using the women's spaces - your idea doesn't affect that at all, does it? Again, we have nothing to say "sorry, this isn't your space".

You do understand that I mean separate toilet to womens and mens? As in: mens toilets, womens toilets and a single gender neutral toilet that is completely separate to the womens and mens. Women that don’t want to be in the same space a biological men can go into the womens.

Just like the disabled toilet is gender neutral but there is still womens and mens toilet. That’s what I mean.

AlisonDonut · 26/03/2022 11:58

I meant similar to a disabled toilet, completely separated from both male/female toilets. The idea is that anyone can use it really as it’s completely private and just a single room.

Ok yes in theory.

I saw someone has sent a rad from on twitter a video of a nepenised male, who says he is trans, pissing all over the toilet, the toilet paper, the sink, the floor, the towel etc. He had sent it to her in response to wanting single sex spaces. Unfortunately you cannot trust men to behave. It's why we have single sex spaces in the first place.

Surely you can comprehend that?

ikeepseeingit · 26/03/2022 12:04

@AlisonDonut

I meant similar to a disabled toilet, completely separated from both male/female toilets. The idea is that anyone can use it really as it’s completely private and just a single room.

Ok yes in theory.

I saw someone has sent a rad from on twitter a video of a nepenised male, who says he is trans, pissing all over the toilet, the toilet paper, the sink, the floor, the towel etc. He had sent it to her in response to wanting single sex spaces. Unfortunately you cannot trust men to behave. It's why we have single sex spaces in the first place.

Surely you can comprehend that?

I mean, that person sounds like an arsehole. I’m not sure that is an argument against what I’m advocating for?
SmellyOldOwls · 26/03/2022 12:12

Single sex spaces also protect men to an extent. According to some of them, they're at constant risk of women falsely accusing them of rape and assault. Surely they would be more comfortable then if women were not in their toilets and changing rooms?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/03/2022 12:18

Surely you can comprehend that?

I think many of these people have huge cognitive dissonance, or they've lived a sheltered life.

ikeepseeingit · 26/03/2022 12:23

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Surely you can comprehend that?

I think many of these people have huge cognitive dissonance, or they've lived a sheltered life.

Wow. That’s hugely condescending towards me.
SolasAnla · 26/03/2022 12:32

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

So women could use it if they weren't sure who was using the ladies? Or are you expecting trans people to stick to that single cubicle? What if they don't want to?
Its a choice between need and want.

Males have 2 options from 3. They need/want to self exclude from the single sex female space.

Females have 2 options from 3. They need/want to self exclude from the single sex male space.

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 26/03/2022 12:34

I don't get the point you're trying to make Solas.

PrelateChuckles · 26/03/2022 12:35

Women that don’t want to be in the same space a biological men can go into the womens

Right, IKeep, so you're advocating that men's and women's toilets go back to being single-sex?
Because currently the position being advocated for is that the toilets are divided by gender - male people who say they feel they have a 'woman' gender go in the women's, and TRAs say this is fine because they really are women.

I'm genuinely confused about what you think the current position is and what you think having a third space would do.

Single sex + neutral is what the GC feminists have been asking for, but - and I'm repeating myself - it's been deemed not accepting/inclusive enough.

Women that don't want to be in a space with a biological male currently have to use the accessible space or not have a space at all, because males are using the women's spaces.

TeenPlusCat · 26/03/2022 12:37

Solas The issue is that it appears some/many TW don't want a third space. They want to use the female single sex space because it validates them as women.

Third spaces are no good unless everyone accepts that people can't use opposite sex spaces. Otherwise we get the Hampstead Ponds again.

SexiestDogWalker · 26/03/2022 12:38

You've been guided to the other boards, which is good- but I will say this. On Twitter, on Facebook, Insta and TikTok etc, someone can put your face to your name. And we've all seen what this small yet extremely loud hate group do to people who dare express an opinion that supports biological women. Here we can do so with no worries that someone is going to threaten our children, our homes, us, our jobs etc. So that's why you think there are so many with the GC opinion. We're just a tiny speck of the women (and men) who feel this way, we just have a safe space to actually share our true feelings. Which we won't have anymore if these lunatic fact deniers have their own way

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/03/2022 12:39

Wow. That’s hugely condescending towards me.

Just wondering why you don't think poor male behaviour is relevant to women wanting single sex spaces? Most women have experienced sexual harassment and many sexual violence. From men.

bellinisurge · 26/03/2022 12:42

Yep, transwomen have no interest in third spaces. That violates the "right" to be validated by women. Stand in the way of that right and you are anti trans rights.
Apparently transwomen have been using women's public bathrooms for, and I quote, "centuries". Obviously never heard of the urinary leash.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/03/2022 12:42

Third spaces are no good unless everyone accepts that people can't use opposite sex spaces. Otherwise we get the Hampstead Ponds again.

Exactly. And what happened at Hampstead Ponds:

Ladies pond - must be women and males who identify as women, regardless of Muslim and Jewish women no longer being able to use it
Mixed pond - both sexes, ideal for males who identify as women to swim with their female friends, but apparently not good enough
Men's pond - only for men, we'll call the police on women

ikeepseeingit · 26/03/2022 12:45

@PrelateChuckles

Women that don’t want to be in the same space a biological men can go into the womens

Right, IKeep, so you're advocating that men's and women's toilets go back to being single-sex?
Because currently the position being advocated for is that the toilets are divided by gender - male people who say they feel they have a 'woman' gender go in the women's, and TRAs say this is fine because they really are women.

I'm genuinely confused about what you think the current position is and what you think having a third space would do.

Single sex + neutral is what the GC feminists have been asking for, but - and I'm repeating myself - it's been deemed not accepting/inclusive enough.

Women that don't want to be in a space with a biological male currently have to use the accessible space or not have a space at all, because males are using the women's spaces.

I don’t follow the debate online closely, I have my own personal views but they differ from those on here. Personally I do not mind if a trans woman comes into a ladies bathroom. However having read that other women are uncomfortable, this seems like the best solution.

My trans and non binary friends have all agreed they would feel more comfortable in a single gender neutral toilet so I was unaware that the online conversation had moved on from that.

I think much of the problem is that most trans people are just out living their lives without fuss. They’re not the ones on twitter advocating for using female sex spaces. Of course, my experience could be an outlier, but I’m 24 so probably prime age for a lot of the twitter bullshit to be seeping into my friends lives and it just doesn’t seem to have. Maybe I’m just choosing my friends well though.

Like I said in my original comment, the discussion has moved on very quickly in the last ten years and people are struggling to keep up. Even me, a young person with trans and non binary friends is struggling.

I would hope a gender neutral space would solve the problem, it’s ridiculous that it’s being shot down.

ikeepseeingit · 26/03/2022 12:47

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Wow. That’s hugely condescending towards me.

Just wondering why you don't think poor male behaviour is relevant to women wanting single sex spaces? Most women have experienced sexual harassment and many sexual violence. From men.

That’s not what I was arguing. Of course it is relevant, it wasn’t relevant to my particular argument which was that trans/non binary people can use a separate toilet.
AlisonDonut · 26/03/2022 12:49

I mean, that person sounds like an arsehole. I’m not sure that is an argument against what I’m advocating for?

Why do you think we have spaces differentiated by sex in the first place?

AlisonDonut · 26/03/2022 12:51

That’s not what I was arguing. Of course it is relevant, it wasn’t relevant to my particular argument which was that trans/non binary people can use a separate toilet.

Non binary and trans people are still either male or female. Why can't they use the toilet of their own sex?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 26/03/2022 12:52

That’s not what I was arguing. Of course it is relevant, it wasn’t relevant to my particular argument which was that trans/non binary people can use a separate toilet

I apologise. I misinterpreted your post.

Tillsforthrills · 26/03/2022 12:52

@autienotnaughty

How do you propose women and women’s rights are protected in the process of men being able to identify as women? Genuine question. A psychological assessment does not seem adequate.

Iggly · 26/03/2022 12:53

My opinion is that biology is incredibly important to many aspects of my life and should not be discounted.

My opinion is that the move to try and destroy female only spaces is absurd.

And it’s more than just toilets. Women are already fucking shortchanged when it comes to toilets - that’s a symptom of our society (mainly designed by men, for men, with women as an after thought). It’s bigger than that.

ikeepseeingit · 26/03/2022 12:53

@AlisonDonut

That’s not what I was arguing. Of course it is relevant, it wasn’t relevant to my particular argument which was that trans/non binary people can use a separate toilet.

Non binary and trans people are still either male or female. Why can't they use the toilet of their own sex?

Because they are trans/ non binary and feel uncomfortable. That’s kind of their whole thing?
PrelateChuckles · 26/03/2022 12:55

I would hope a gender neutral space would solve the problem, it’s ridiculous that it’s being shot down.

Really sorry ikeep but I genuinely can't understand what you are proposing.

Do you mean biological male, biological female, and unisex/anyone spaces?

You're not actually engaging with what I'm saying, so I'm not "shooting down", it's that I can't see what it is you are actually saying.

DrSbaitso · 26/03/2022 12:59

"Open" third spaces are suggested all the time and rejected. It's got to be natal males in female spaces. Nothing else will do.