Can't cope with DS being transgender

[YellowBrickWall]

This is so hard. I feel like I'm in a very weird place. I am absolutely gutted and just want it to not be happening. He is 23 and lives with us. I thought we had escaped this trend but he's got caught up in it. I don't know what to do.

It's hard to describe but I simply cannot go along with it. It's not true, he's not a woman, he never will be. I hate the gaslighting, it's so distressing. This is upsetting me so much but I don't know what to do.

He's an adult and can do what he wants but unfortunately this particular thing requires my involvement and I can't. I am totally against it. There seems to be no middle ground, I either go against everything I know and believe or I won't be involved in his life. It feels like blackmail. It feels shit. I hate it.

So you want trans people, who are already in a vulnerable group as shown by the views on this thread, to have to use a separate trans identifiable space - because no one who isn’t trans would choose to use a gender neutral space would they?

Why wouldn't they? All the many women who want a mixed sex space can use it too.

@YellowBrickWall your son knows he is loved and accepted for who he is which is the main thing. I am rather ignorant on this subject although have had some transgender patients and found it difficult then to get the pronouns right when they have been so obviously the opposite sex. I then get horrified looks from my much younger colleagues so I try to just stick to their name in front of the patient so as not to accidentally offend.

The actual word woman means a person with a womb so I can't quite get my head around this. But each to their own, I would never be rude or offensive to anybody who chose this for themselves.

I agree with everything you say and your argument re him being an atheist and could he believe in God if you asked him was a simple but brilliant explanation. (which I will steal at some point). Would he be open to a compromise on name, eg one of my sons has a nickname which could apply to either sex, would he agree to something like that. (and I am not going to apologise for using the he pronoun although I wait to be slated. If I gave birth to a boy there is no way I could start calling him she 23 years later, I have enough difficulty calling the right son's name, sometimes start saying all three names before I get the right one!) 💐

No one is saying the feelings of women and girls are less important.

Yes they are. You are saying that the feelings of a male person who wants to use a female space trump those of the women in there, many of whom would not consent. Own it, please.

@YellowBrickWall

What if he converted to Judaism, chose a different name and started to keep kosher. Would you insist on serving him pork and took a Saturday job because you believe differently.

In your analogy it's the other way round surely? He is the one insisting I follow his religion, regardless of my own beliefs, eschew pork and observe the Sabbath.

Well no, not necessarily, that's what I mean about a middle course. I believe pretty much what you do when it comes to changing sex but I would still use a different name and pronouns for a trans person if they wanted me to.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

No one is saying the feelings of women and girls are less important.

Yes they are. You are saying that the feelings of a male person who wants to use a female space trump those of the women in there, many of whom would not consent. Own it, please.

I am owning my own opinions, thanks.

I am never going to believe the feelings of a roomful of women, some of whom will be rape survivors or traumatised by male violence in other ways are less important than those of one male. I'm not ashamed of putting the women first.

You do you, I think most people eventually work out how sexist this is.

This does not mean I don't have sympathy for OP's son, but other people matter too.

@Bagelsandbrie

The thing about safeguarding womens only spaces is flawed though because despite us having womens only spaces for years, attacks on women still happen. There are lots of transgender people, like my dds best friend, who would use the womens toilet without anyone even suspecting they ever used to be a man. Being transgender isn’t a new thing, however much Mumsnet seems to assume it to be. People have become more accepting of it and therefore people talk about it more and people who might have been afraid to live their life in that way before might feel more able to now - so perhaps it seems like there’s more of it, but it’s always been there. And genuinely trans people have always used their chosen toilet etc and most of them have never been called out for it - or attacked women. My dds friend is a lovely, kind and gentle person and is far more likely to be attacked themselves if they went into the mens toilet as so many of you seem to wish they did - is that what people really want to happen, to an 18 year old?

I really hate the anti trans stuff on Mumsnet. It’s totally out of touch. I’m sorry, but it is.

But no one is saying men can’t present as whatever they like. If a man can legitimately pass for a woman and not be a bother he’s likely to get away with it. The difference is now any man can call themselves “ trans” and any dissent is transphobic. We can’t kick a man out of anywhere that’s making us uncomfortable or disadvantaged be it changing room, toilet or sport. As for “out of touch” that’s an old argument. This is not about accepting some new fangled difference. It’s about not letting men get their version of the world again at expense of women.

@LiesDoNotBecomeUs

He will be a trans-woman, not a woman. Biology will prevent the latter no matter what he does.

This. 100%. And I will never ever change my stance on this. I fail completely to understand why so many people can’t get understand this - You cannot change your sex, never.

You do you, I think most people eventually work out how sexist this is.

I'm quite sure you believe this but that's only because you spend so much time on MN. The rest of the world don't think like this. Well maybe The Daily Mail, Piers Morgan and other hateful people do, check out who you're aligned with

am not going to apologise for using the he pronoun although I wait to be slated. If I gave birth to a boy there is no way I could start calling him she 23 years later

Some of us haven't really had a choice. You either have to do it, or live in a strange pronoun-less limbo, or antagonise and risk losing your child.

@ididntevennotice I totally agree with you too, if it was my young child I would do anything possible to support them and keep them safe. I would however struggle with my 23 year old son suddenly deciding on it when there had been no earlier indications, especially one with mental health conditions. I would still try my best to support them but know in all honesty I would struggle to 'believe' it or manage to use their chosen pronoun. I hope your child is happy and healthy now💐

The rest of the world doesn't share your beliefs either. They are pretty centrist about the whole thing and most people think a sex change operation should be needed to go into a female space, as polls show. They also think Lia Thomas shouldn't be competing against women, and that medical supervision should be needed to change your legal sex.

Well maybe The Daily Mail, Piers Morgan and other hateful people do, check out who you're aligned with

Yes literally no one in the country reads the Daily Mail or listens to Piers Morgan. Who do you think this "rest of the world" is, exactly? I guess it must be your own echo chamber. Unfortunately for you, they don't get to decide for everyone else.

@Bagelsandbrie

The thing about safeguarding womens only spaces is flawed though because despite us having womens only spaces for years, attacks on women still happen. There are lots of transgender people, like my dds best friend, who would use the womens toilet without anyone even suspecting they ever used to be a man. Being transgender isn’t a new thing, however much Mumsnet seems to assume it to be. People have become more accepting of it and therefore people talk about it more and people who might have been afraid to live their life in that way before might feel more able to now - so perhaps it seems like there’s more of it, but it’s always been there. And genuinely trans people have always used their chosen toilet etc and most of them have never been called out for it - or attacked women. My dds friend is a lovely, kind and gentle person and is far more likely to be attacked themselves if they went into the mens toilet as so many of you seem to wish they did - is that what people really want to happen, to an 18 year old?

I really hate the anti trans stuff on Mumsnet. It’s totally out of touch. I’m sorry, but it is.

@Bagelsandbrie

Well what’s your answer then? Have no women-only spaces?? Oh yeah, cos look at how that can work out when trans women have been allowed into women’s prisons….

You hate what you describe as “anti trans stuff on mumsnet” I hate the mistreatment and disregard of women in particular vulnerable women of which they are lots (again not their fault but the way they have been positioned and disadvantaged by society).

Mumsnet is not anti trans, I’ve not seen anyone post that OPs son cannot do as he likes, wear a dress etc but he can never be a woman. Well he can’t, it’s a fact. And Op knows that but the amount of posters on here trying to bully her into it it with threats of “losing your child” are ridiculous (and p.s she won’t “lose her child” a) he’s not a child, he’s an adult child and b) he’s dependant on his mother for a roof over his head. How’s she’s gonna lose him, he lives under bloody roof! Losing him would mean him actually living independently, shelling out for rent etc none of which he seems to be managing all too well at the moment…

@RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie sorry, I worded that badly I meant that I would try but know I would keep getting it wrong and thereby cause offence💐
Old dog new tricks and all that🤔

@headspin10
But why should you always support your child? I made decisions and did things in my early twenties and didn’t expect to equivocally get the support of my parents especially if it was blatantly not a wise decision

@LuckySantangelo35
They're her child and will continue to be her child, however old they are. And if it's bullying and ridiculous to talk about one's lived experience and the concerns of being a parent, then you're lucky enough to not really know what bullying is.

[quote Mossstitch]@RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie sorry, I worded that badly I meant that I would try but know I would keep getting it wrong and thereby cause offence💐
Old dog new tricks and all that🤔[/quote]
Thanks for clarifying, @Mossstitch
To err is human!

It's possible to convert to Judaism.

If anyone feels they are out of touch, I can recommend the recent interim Cass review report, plus the recent caution being advocated by the French and Swedish national health and welfare boards.

Can post links if needed.

The current societal climate and evidence base for medical treatments has been comprehensively reviewed and is set out.

Watchful waiting and individual psychological support are to be the new paradigm. Affirmation and medicalisation the last resort.

@RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie
Erm but they’re an adult too.
And you don’t say why she would “lose her child”. It’s so dramatic. He might be pissed off with her etc but he’s getting a roof over his head for free, what’s he gonna do exactly?

@DoubleTweenQueen

If anyone feels they are out of touch, I can recommend the recent interim Cass review report, plus the recent caution being advocated by the French and Swedish national health and welfare boards.

Can post links if needed.

The current societal climate and evidence base for medical treatments has been comprehensively reviewed and is set out.

Watchful waiting and individual psychological support are to be the new paradigm. Affirmation and medicalisation the last resort.

Yes please to links. Thank you.

agree with everything you say and your argument re him being an atheist and could he believe in God if you asked him was a simple but brilliant explanation

I don't believe in God but I am in a relationship with a Catholic. I am perfectly able to talk to him about God as if he were real, whilst still believing in my heart that he doesn't. My partner is aware I do not believe, but I don't antagonise him by dismissing everything he says about God or by telling him "God isn't real" every time he mentions him.

[quote LuckySantangelo35]@RemusLupinsBiggestGroupie
Erm but they’re an adult too.
And you don’t say why she would “lose her child”. It’s so dramatic. He might be pissed off with her etc but he’s getting a roof over his head for free, what’s he gonna do exactly?[/quote]
Well, there's the question. Mental health issues, feeling like one's mother is rejecting what you believe to be your essential self. There are many potential scenarios of loss implied there, I think.