Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Ukraine-invasion-part-16

991 replies

PestorPeston · 22/03/2022 23:46

Warsaw Russian is letting out a lot of smoke - there has been no decision on who among them will be the next pontiff.

Biden is going there Friday

Is Boris Johnson the designated survivor?

Who the heck let me be in charge?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
AgnesWestern · 25/03/2022 08:29

I just saw the comment from Biden about responding ‘in kind’ to chemical attacks from Russia.

What does that mean exactly?

That makes it sound like they’ll use chemical weapons in return? Surely that can’t be right can it?

MrsLargeEmbodied · 25/03/2022 08:39

Frank Gardner
@FrankRGardner
·
11m
Some puzzlement over President Biden saying if Russia used chemical Wpns in #Ukraine “it would trigger a response in kind”. The West no longer has active stocks of chem wpns, which are banned under the 1997 Chemical Weapons Convention, signed by 193 nations. #UkraineRussiaWar

@AgnesWestern - no idea

MrsLargeEmbodied · 25/03/2022 08:39

i am sure they have a plan but tactics should not always be made public

shreddednips · 25/03/2022 08:43

@RedToothBrush

I know someone had a go at Johnson about tanks upthread...

Sam Coates Sky @samcoatessky
The Times @Steven_Swinford said this morning Johnson was rebuffed on tanks directly by Macron

So seems like there maybe a little more to this story.

I'll try to find the article later, but I got the impression from some of the coverage that Boris wanted to provide the equipment Zelensky asked for and was disappointed with the outcome.
Alexandra2001 · 25/03/2022 08:49

@MrsLargeEmbodied Media isn't reporting that US would also use Chemical etc, rather that there would be a very severe response but not a specific one.

I guess we've learned not to rule out anything....

US/NATO launching a chemical/nuclear/bio strike on Russian positions would be far more likely to trigger WW3 than a NFZ.

Alexandra2001 · 25/03/2022 08:53

I'll try to find the article later, but I got the impression from some of the coverage that Boris wanted to provide the equipment Zelensky asked for and was disappointed with the outcome

Nothing to stop UK from sending Challenger tanks, apart from Ukrainians would need training on them and armaments, looks like BJ suggesting something he knows cannot happen but makes him look good...
We sent in anti tank without the France's approval... its what the Americans are prepared to do (i.e. no to MiG's), not what France does or not.

notimagain · 25/03/2022 08:55

@RedToothBrush

I know someone had a go at Johnson about tanks upthread...

Sam Coates Sky @samcoatessky
The Times @Steven_Swinford said this morning Johnson was rebuffed on tanks directly by Macron

So seems like there maybe a little more to this story.

So five minutes ago Boris was saying (supposedly) tanks had had their day and yet now ?

TBH he will know darned well what the NATO party line was on this and he knows tanks are at the moment a “no no.

Sounds like Mr Johnson is rushing to the front of the “we want tanks” brigade, something that plays well in some quarters in the MSM and something which also conveniently allows the “ah but Macron” card to be played…

Igotjelly · 25/03/2022 09:04

I agree, don’t believe for a second that Boris genuinely gives a shit about Ukraine. Boris cares about Boris and saving face with the UK public after the shitshow of party-gate. It’s easy to stand there looking all forlorn and say he wishes we could send tanks blah blah blah. How about he and Porto Patel sort their shit out with regards to helping those fleeing the conflict. Something they SHOULD be able to do but apparently can’t.

Igotjelly · 25/03/2022 09:04

Port Patel 😂😂😂 autocorrect sucks! Clearly Priti!

RedToothBrush · 25/03/2022 09:07

Tom Nichols @radiofreetom
For those who keep asking why some of us are so worried about the risks of escalation, you have to understand that NATO and Russia have now switched the positions they had during the Cold War. NATO is now the dominant conventional power; Russia is the weaker power. /1

During the Cold War, NATO had little hope of holding off a Soviet conventional offensive. So we adopted a policy of "flexible response," in which we preserved all options - including nuclear escalation. The Soviets wanted to keep it all conventional if possible, of course. /2

This might seem nuts, but we basically told the Soviets that nuclear use became more probable with Soviet victories, since we would run out of options and we'd intentionally escalate. If you want to understand Putin's threats, it's basically something like that now. /3

The huge difference, of course, is that NATO assumed it would be invaded and fighting a defensive war that made escalation credible. Russia makes these threats basically as a way of getting themselves out of a jam created by their own aggression and stupidity. /4

But in any case, the problem is that the threat to escalate isn't some insane doomsday rant, it's a threat to induce a lot of chaos and unpredictability and instability, to the point where no one would want to be in that situation and peace would be preferable. /5

Putin's Russia is now the weaker conventional power. (And how much weaker, we didn't know until now.) So Putin may make such threats in order to deter us from clobbering his miserable army. Not because he wants Armageddon, but because he's up shit creek and he knows it. /6

His best option, obvs, is to make peace and extract concessions from Ukraine. But if we enter the war and what's left of his military gets sent to the hell it deserves, he might see value in trying to scramble the deck with escalatory threats (as he's already doing now). /7

Nuclear threats, however, could literally blow up in his face. What seems like a good gamble to back everyone down could get out of control when NATO decides to stand firm. With both sides at higher alert, an accident or a panicky misperception could lead to disaster. /8

This is why it's not "he will or won't." There's a lot of room in between "he's a coward" and "he's a maniac." He could also just be delusional and surrounded by weak men - and nothing suggests this more than the complete Russian pooch-screw we're watching now in Ukraine. /9

I wrote a book on nukes in 2015. This is the excerpt on the logic of flexible response. Again, think of it now as the Russians, through their own malevolence and stupidity, today being where NATO was 40 years ago. And think hard before hand-waving at escalatory concerns. /10x

Ukraine-invasion-part-16
Ukraine-invasion-part-16
MagicFox · 25/03/2022 09:11

@RedToothBrush good thread

RedToothBrush · 25/03/2022 09:18

@Igotjelly

I agree, don’t believe for a second that Boris genuinely gives a shit about Ukraine. Boris cares about Boris and saving face with the UK public after the shitshow of party-gate. It’s easy to stand there looking all forlorn and say he wishes we could send tanks blah blah blah. How about he and Porto Patel sort their shit out with regards to helping those fleeing the conflict. Something they SHOULD be able to do but apparently can’t.
I view Johnson through the prism of he does what he thinks will keep him popular and he believes in. Thats where he puts in effort and resources. I think that can be a good thing for whatever cause it is, but his nature is more bull in a china shop than nuanced. Every thing else he is pretty indifferent to. He generally will do whatever he wants to achieve his pet projects until brick walled.

Re sending tanks to Ukraine. Its not necessarily that simple.

Tanks don't magically appear in Ukraine. You need approval and agreement to get them there. As in you need the consent of every country en route to allow those particular weapons to transit through them by road, rail or air.

If Macron says no, there is a fairly big logistical issue (we don't know what other countries are saying but geography means this is fairly obstructive and limiting). Tanks aren't the easiest thing to move about at the best of times.

RedToothBrush · 25/03/2022 09:25

Eerik N Kross @eeriknkross
A joke from Moscow: "According to Putin the special military operation is really a conflict btw Russia and NATO about World dominance. Whats the situation now?" "Russia has lost 15000 troops, 6 generals, 500 tanks, 3 ships, 100 planes and 1000 trucks. NATO hasn't arrived yet."

Alexandra2001 · 25/03/2022 09:28

Mariupol reporting that 300 people died in the Theater bombing.... terrible, beyond the pale for Russia to prevent their rescue.

Bojo is a populist, he goes for the policies he thinks will win him support rather than whats right or what he actually believes in.

I think we should look more closely at the links between Sunak and Modi, his wifes interests in Infosys and its operation in Russia... India has proven an enemy of UK interests, not too mention Ukraines.

ClaudineClare · 25/03/2022 09:32

I think we should look more closely at the links between Sunak and Modi, his wifes interests in Infosys and its operation in Russia... India has proven an enemy of UK interests, not too mention Ukraines

Agreed. He was asked about this in an interview yesterday and did not look pleased at all.

news.sky.com/story/rishi-sunak-challenged-over-wifes-links-to-company-infosys-that-has-presence-in-russia-12574093

RedToothBrush · 25/03/2022 09:35

Max Seddon @maxseddon
“Will l be allowed to have a cleaner, or a driver? I don’t drive a car . . . maybe my stepdaughter will drive. We don’t understand how to survive.”

Russian oligarch Petr Aven laments life after sanctions to @DanielThomasLDN and @AJack
www.ft.com/content/5e4ffb26-a167-4b90-9981-084fc6a50ea4
Will l be allowed a cleaner, or a driver?’ Life after sanctions for a Russian oligarch

DuncinToffee · 25/03/2022 09:44

My heart bleeds

Igotjelly · 25/03/2022 09:48

@RedToothBrush

Max Seddon *@maxseddon* “Will l be allowed to have a cleaner, or a driver? I don’t drive a car . . . maybe my stepdaughter will drive. We don’t understand how to survive.”

Russian oligarch Petr Aven laments life after sanctions to @DanielThomasLDN and @AJack
www.ft.com/content/5e4ffb26-a167-4b90-9981-084fc6a50ea4
Will l be allowed a cleaner, or a driver?’ Life after sanctions for a Russian oligarch

Says it all when you compare with those in Mariupol who are asking “will I have water and food today”
Saku · 25/03/2022 10:07

I think we should look more closely at the links between Sunak and Modi, his wifes interests in Infosys and its operation in Russia... India has proven an enemy of UK interests, not too mention Ukraines.

We still need India in our friend list, to counter China though.

ScrollingLeaves · 25/03/2022 10:16

@TiddyTidTwo
“My grandfather was a Japanese POW. He was a hero and kept others alive in the camp. He hid the Suffolk Regiment Standard flag. His mental positivity kept the others going. He was 6'2 and was 8 stone when he came back. But that bloody flag came back with him. It's now in his hometown museum and he was awarded the George medal.

My father followed in his footsteps and so did I. Not to that extent but we were in the British army. I didn't join for politics.

When my dad was much older and in the old comrades people who were with my grandad would come up to him and cry saying how grandad kept them alive by he sheer positivity.“

It is wonderful to realise how even in the midst of a massive and overpowering force one person’s spirit can make so much difference. You must be so proud of him. I hope he was ok after the war and had something left for himself.

Igotjelly · 25/03/2022 10:17

From Sky News

Ukraine-invasion-part-16
MagicFox · 25/03/2022 10:20

@Igotjelly that would be fantastic but not seeing it reported anywhere else at mo

notimagain · 25/03/2022 10:22

The Tom Nichols tweet that RTB has posted fits in with how I recall we were briefed things could have gone at the time..

Up to around ‘85 I think it was considered that in the event of a Soviet attack in Central Europe NATO forces would have very quickly (handful of days) been faced with the choice of being overrun or have resort to tactical nukes, possibly on West German soil.

There was large scale re-equipment from mid 80s onwards which it was felt started to swing the balance and that threat receded.

Interesting to see the modern analysis.

baroqueandblue · 25/03/2022 10:30

"So far as Afghanistan is concerned, India's policy is guided by the UN Security Council Resolution 2593. On Ukraine, we discussed our respective approaches & perspective but agreed that diplomacy and dialogue must be the priority," Jaishankar said while addressing the media.Both sides agreed on the importance of an immediate ceasefire in Ukraine.

@MagicFox Times of India has something :

www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/india/chinese-foreign-minister-wang-meets-nsa-doval/amp_articleshow/90433049.cms

jgw1 · 25/03/2022 10:32

@notimagain

The Tom Nichols tweet that RTB has posted fits in with how I recall we were briefed things could have gone at the time..

Up to around ‘85 I think it was considered that in the event of a Soviet attack in Central Europe NATO forces would have very quickly (handful of days) been faced with the choice of being overrun or have resort to tactical nukes, possibly on West German soil.

There was large scale re-equipment from mid 80s onwards which it was felt started to swing the balance and that threat receded.

Interesting to see the modern analysis.

I wonder if those analysis of the Soviet conventional threat might have actually turned out to be over stated, as the Russian's armies current ability appears to have been.