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Ukraine-invasion-part-16

991 replies

PestorPeston · 22/03/2022 23:46

Warsaw Russian is letting out a lot of smoke - there has been no decision on who among them will be the next pontiff.

Biden is going there Friday

Is Boris Johnson the designated survivor?

Who the heck let me be in charge?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
TiddyTidTwo · 25/03/2022 00:49

"Easy, Tiddy, firebelly :)"

I am trying, honest! 😇

TiddyTidTwo · 25/03/2022 01:11

"And yet Ukraine would like to join both"

Can't fathom why. EU are putting sanctions on Poland.

dibly · 25/03/2022 01:12

I’m with you Tiddy, I can’t bear just watching and waiting. Why is it right that Russia can approach whoever who likes to get more soldiers, ammo, support, yet we can’t give anything more than weapons. I always thought that if we ever saw atrocities in Europe again then we’d step in. It shouldn’t take a piece of paper or NATO membership.

Why can’t we start making our own threats and demands to Russia? Clear messaging at the very least that unless Putin allows peace envoys and medical humanitarian support to eg cities like Mariupol then there will be serious consequences?

I never thought I was hawkish, still don’t think I am, no spring chicken at 49 and seen a fair few wars, but never any in my adult life that I’ve thought had the potential to start a world war. My fear is that unless we do something more, we will literally have to slowly watch a proud country with millions of citizens be destroyed, slowly and painfully. And I just can’t bear that thought when we have the resources to do so much more.

HeechulOppa · 25/03/2022 01:26

Thank you for your service @TiddyTidTwo

BreadInCaptivity · 25/03/2022 01:27

I get you, I really do.

I really think NATO has got its messaging wrong in saying they won't intervene.

Putin escalates. That's his tactic and it's been working for 20 years and arguably it still is.

We can say "we are not doing nothing" re: weapons/sanctions but the truth is we are still appeasing him.

As soon as he got a sniff of polish MiG's being sent to Ukrainian he upped the ante in his response.

We need to find our backbone and say enough.

We are already at war with Russia whether we like it or not. It's simply now a set of decisions about how that war is conducted on a sectional basis re: finance/cyber/supply chain/intelligence (which we are already doing) and military engagement.

Earlier threads discussed "poking the bear" and that the West may be to blame. I disagree on two counts - who decided Russia was the bear and who did the poking?

From what I'm witnessing Russia hasn't just poked, but has fired shots at what it thought was a Teddy Bear and found out it was a real live creature. I'd now rather the West demonstrably showed it was a Grizzly mother bear protecting its young.

De-escalation isn't a virtue imho when your opponent uses it tactically against you and thus attack being the best form of defence becomes a truism rather than a saying.

My worry is this will take too long and Ukrainians will see goodwill and weapons sourcing end.

So yes, I'm in favour of playing Putin at his own game and saying if you don't stop taking civilians to Russia against their will, stop shelling cities and humanitarian corridors, cutting off water supplies and bombing hospitals then we will take action such as supplying MiG's, tanks and beyond that engaging on the sea, ground and air motherfucker.

BreadInCaptivity · 25/03/2022 01:28

Sorry post was @TiddyTidTwo

RedToothBrush · 25/03/2022 03:35

Can't sleep (nothing to do with this)

Ben Judah @b_judah
Today’s note from conversations with experts and officials:

— Russia can’t continue the campaign at current intensity beyond a month and will need to pause and regroup with fresh troops.

— Russia has too many fronts and not enough troops on Kyiv, Kharkiv and Mykolayiv lines.

— Russia needs fresh troops to maintain these operations: this can either come from upping military recruitment (prisoners/unemployed/re-enlisting conscripts/Chechens/mercenaries) or a general mobilisation.

— Consensus is Putin will want to avoid unpopular mass mobilisation.

— Militarily Russia no longer threatens Kyiv and is exposed on the western approaches of the city but does seriously threaten the Ukrainian army in the Donbas with encirclement.

— Russia has been improving its logistics in the past week but has serious communication problems.

— Russia’s maximalist regime change initial plan was utterly botched and now has no chance of success. The verdict is still out on the hastily improvised attempt to switch to a classic high intensity campaign to focus on conquering Ukraine’s southern and outer Donbas regions.

— Risk of a Russian military assault on Odessa is largely seen as passed as the numbers simply aren’t there and the Ukrainian army has held the line on the Mykolayiv front.

— However officials and experts are more worried than the conversation on Twitter where Ukraine advocacy predominates with a narrative of Kyiv having a chance of victory.

— Fears of a long, destructive, exhausting war with big ripple effects are high.

— Russia is very literally de-militarising Ukraine’s military industrial capacity from the air. Some think this impact could take over a decade to rebuild.

— Russia’s use of air power continues to be minimal due to Ukrainian denial and aversion to even greater civilian deaths.

— The exact state of the Ukrainian military in terms of losses is unknown but believed to also be considerable.

— Like Russia, Ukrainian military effectiveness is believed to also have peaked due to exhaustion and war damage on its terrain.

— There us a risk of Ukraine exhausting its armies in counter attacks.

— Officials nervous that Russia could use chemical weapons to terrorise Ukrainians and mobilise Russians for mass conscription with a false flag.

— However military analysts note they will make little impact on the battlefield greater use of explosives cannot already.

— Real apprehension that WMD use could see big public pressure for the West to act or trigger an escalatory spiral that could end up in NATO-Russia clashes.

— Fears if Russia launches serious cyberattack reprisals on Western critical infrastructure, there could be an escalatory spiral into direct clashes.

— Outbreak of general clashes short of nuclear war likely to advantage Putin with domestic moral boost and Western panic.

— However the base case is this settling into a war of attrition.

— One view is the battle lines will like a sort of gigantic version of the Donbas frontlines post-2014.

— Unclear who a war of attrition benefits on the ground: a war on Ukrainian territory is costly to them.

— Growing sense Ukrainian attrition means the West will have to do much, much more in terms of military support and financial support for Ukraine.

— Current support will have to transition from ad hoc to a more structured Lend Lease model such as used by Roosevelt.

— Sense that Western sanctions need to be tightened and have ever so slightly disappointed in impact, both on the ground and in the markets.

— Little credence given to Twitter narratives of Kremlin coups and regime cracks with Russia and its regime viewed as able to withstand.

— Growing sense that the sanctions necessary to do on Russia next if there is escalation are oil sanctions modelled on those employed on Iran.

— Inconclusive debate whether mass sanctions on FSB/SVR/siloviki middle management would be effective or not.

— Sense even if Russia surged troops in the spring no silver bullet to take Kyiv but it could consolidate its southern land bridge and maybe complete conquest of Donbas and advance east of Dnipr.

— Whether this happens depends on the battlefield itself over the next few weeks.

— How Russian and Ukrainian commanders fare in the field in the south-east is key. How quickly can Mariupol fall? Can the Ukrainian army fight off Russian encirclement?

— These highly unpredictable military outcomes will have political consequences for a ceasefire.

— If Putin can achieve those gains many diplomats feel he could declare a halt to regroup or even try for a longterm deal that rewarded him those regions alone.

— Ukrainian opinion fiercely opposed to any territorial concessions though.

More analysis soon.

RedToothBrush · 25/03/2022 03:44

Mark Hertling @markhertling
Yesterday on @cnn, I was asked several times about Ukraine "morale."

A difficult quality to define. It's something commanders (& all leaders) struggle to ensure.

There's tons of research on the subject. Even Clausewitz discusses it.

So here's a thread of some thoughts

Clausewitz says that morale (& will) is critical. For soldiers & commanders.

He says this quality is found through moral & physical courage, the acceptance of battlefield responsibility, & suppression of fear.

Interesting. But how do you achieve that?

On 2/24 I wrote a thread discussing how power on the battlefield is defined by resources and will. I said then the RU had advantage in "resources," but UKR had a greater advantage in "will." And I predicted UKR would win.

Will can often override resource advantage.

I believe will & morale compliment each other.

There's been many articles on what contributes to morale & will. Some of them are random musings by business leaders, some are great research studies.

But my experiences show there are 10 key elements contributing to morale.

Here are those elements (not in order of importance):
1. Trust in leaders, from the small unit level to the top of the "food chain"
2. Belief that leaders will share the individual's hardships.
3. The inherent self-discipline of individuals
4. The discipline instilled by the leaders in a variety of ways.
5. Training...and the individual's trust in their own ability
6. Trust... in the quality of equipment
7. Trust...in your team.
8. The provisions of physical comforts: food, sleep, warmth & the ability to contact loved ones.
9. Communication (about the situation & the related expectations: "what are we doing and why do we need to do it?")
10. The belief you are on a "winning team."

It's not difficult to determine which side - Russian or Ukraine - has the advantage in these ten areas.

Examples:
"Training and the trust in equipment"

Both sides have similar equipment (though the RU's certainly have a quantity advantage).

But in seeing RU training...it's abysmal.

On the other side, starting in 2008, UKR adopted the EUCOM and NATO training model.

My experience: seeing UKR soldiers arrive at Grafenwoehr to gain individual & unit proficiency (for operations in the Balkans & Afghanistan) and UKR sending young leaders to the Sergeant's course (WLC at Graf, with other European countries) is making a significant difference.

Additionally, the decision by the UKR Chief of Ground Forces to send increasing numbers of UKR senior leaders to US Military Schools (and US willingness to offer those slots) is also showing to be a major contributing factor to success.

"Communication: What are we doing, and why?"

It's apparent - from reports of RU soldiers who did not know why they were being sent to UKR or told they were going on an "exercise" - that soldiers were not told of the mission or intent of the invasion.

On the other hand..

UKR's Army, Territorial Force & citizens are all aware of the threat to their sovereignty and freedom, and they continue to share their successes, and their challenges...with each other, and with the world.

"Individual comfort: Food, sleep, warmth, contact with loved ones."

Both sides experiencing the demands & stressors of combat, but 2 RU reports sum up the difference:

"Our soldiers are digging trenches in the snow to sleep" and "We are requesting Chinese MREs."

"Belief you are winning."

Today:
Reports of the "Bucha Pocket" north of Kyiv...UKR soldiers surrounding 10,000 RU troops N of the capital.

UKR Air Force (UAF) - with ground Air Defense - continuing to fight way above their weight.

A RU ship on fire in Berdyansk port.¢

Yes, "morale" is a critical factor in combat.

Leader's know there are ways to instill that inherent desire for strong (high?) morale among their population and their forces.

Lots of lessons to be learned from this fight...just like any fight in any conflict.

MagicFox · 25/03/2022 06:50

@dibly

I’m with you Tiddy, I can’t bear just watching and waiting. Why is it right that Russia can approach whoever who likes to get more soldiers, ammo, support, yet we can’t give anything more than weapons. I always thought that if we ever saw atrocities in Europe again then we’d step in. It shouldn’t take a piece of paper or NATO membership.

Why can’t we start making our own threats and demands to Russia? Clear messaging at the very least that unless Putin allows peace envoys and medical humanitarian support to eg cities like Mariupol then there will be serious consequences?

I never thought I was hawkish, still don’t think I am, no spring chicken at 49 and seen a fair few wars, but never any in my adult life that I’ve thought had the potential to start a world war. My fear is that unless we do something more, we will literally have to slowly watch a proud country with millions of citizens be destroyed, slowly and painfully. And I just can’t bear that thought when we have the resources to do so much more.

I think NATO have been very clear about why we can't do this. I'm reposting two very good articles here about this:

  1. NATO intervention: www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/putin-war-nato-intervention/627092/

2 'Loose talk about nuclear weapons': responsiblestatecraft.org/2022/03/23/lets-curb-loose-talk-of-using-lower-yield-nuclear-weapons/

PaperTyger · 25/03/2022 06:59

Again Marsha one of these statements where I think... thank goodness!

But at the same time, obviously that's a huge escalation.

We don't get told everything and I do think via private channels they will be putting pressure on Putin.

What I found strange is how specific things Putin has done are called a war crime.isnt the entire thing a war crimes??

PaperTyger · 25/03/2022 07:01

Magic both v good articles and Def the one about nuclear weapon.

Poland attempted talk's about going in even as a peace keeping force and look how Putin responded!

Said one toe into Ukraine and they would smash Warsaw

MagicFox · 25/03/2022 07:08

@PaperTyger

Magic both v good articles and Def the one about nuclear weapon.

Poland attempted talk's about going in even as a peace keeping force and look how Putin responded!

Said one toe into Ukraine and they would smash Warsaw

Thanks, I've found both of them worth returning to. Some of the talk normalising the use of nuclear weapons lately has made me Shock

notimagain · 25/03/2022 07:09

@PaperTyger

We don't get told everything and I do think via private channels they will be putting pressure on Putin.

Agreed, there’s info put out for public consumption but I’m sure a lot of is going on behind the scenes diplomatically/politically that we don’t know about and we may never even know about once this is over.

What I found strange is how specific things Putin has done are called a war crime.isnt the entire thing a war crimes?

Nope…starting a war might breech umpteen conventions/agreements/treaties but in itself it’s not a war crime.

PaperTyger · 25/03/2022 07:26

Bread Also agree with your earlier post.

GrumpyPanda · 25/03/2022 07:37

@TiddyTidTwo

"And yet Ukraine would like to join both"

Can't fathom why. EU are putting sanctions on Poland.

For very good reason considering how Kaczyinski and his cronies are dismantling the rule of law. May I add there's a huge number of Polish people you're stabbing in the back with this kind of rhetoric, and it's exactly the ones leading the refugee response everyone's so rightly admiring these days. Not to mention not even the majority of Kaczynski supporters share any of your views - Polish elections have been mainly decided on issues such as social benefits.
DrBlackbird · 25/03/2022 07:47

Fears if Russia launches serious cyberattack reprisals on Western critical infrastructure, there could be an escalatory spiral into direct clashes

Be interesting to know the extent of the threats as well as the extent of Ru’s ability to inflict cyberattacks on critical infrastructures in the US, EU, UK etc. Threats behind the scenes that might be hamstringing a more robust response to Ru? Someone suggested that IT expertise was in the Ukraine more than Russia, which if true holds some assurances.

On the other hand, despite declarations that these previous attacks were purely profit motivated, might these have been testing the waters as part of the preparations for war? Or, just happy coincidence? In any event, I’m going to get some cash out, keep my car filled, and have some tinned food to hand. Just because.

www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/may/08/colonial-pipeline-cyber-attack-shutdown

edition.cnn.com/2022/03/16/politics/russia-us-cyberattack-infrastructure-invs-duplicate-2/index.html

www.csis.org/programs/strategic-technologies-program/significant-cyber-incidents

RedToothBrush · 25/03/2022 07:49

newlinesmag.com/reportage/exclusive-russia-backs-europes-far-right/
Exclusive: Russia Backs Europe’s Far Right
Emails and documents show just how closely Italian, French, German and Austrian politicians coordinate with Moscow

jgw1 · 25/03/2022 07:53

@RedToothBrush

newlinesmag.com/reportage/exclusive-russia-backs-europes-far-right/ Exclusive: Russia Backs Europe’s Far Right Emails and documents show just how closely Italian, French, German and Austrian politicians coordinate with Moscow
But Jeremy Corbyn.
RedToothBrush · 25/03/2022 07:55

I know someone had a go at Johnson about tanks upthread...

Sam Coates Sky @samcoatessky
The Times @Steven_Swinford said this morning Johnson was rebuffed on tanks directly by Macron

So seems like there maybe a little more to this story.

EsmaCannonball · 25/03/2022 08:15

Russia has cancelled all teaching of political science, sociology and cultural studies in its universities.

Alexandra2001 · 25/03/2022 08:16

@TiddyTidTwo

I cannot get my head around a sovereign European country where people are starving and are drinking out of radiators, drinking water from ditches with rotting corpses and having to eat their own pets to survive. Or those pets are so hungry they are feeding of corpses.

That the way over the red line for me

We are all so passionate about this because its on our doorstep (and its after effects) if this were happening in Asia, we wouldn't be.

None really cares what Myanmar has done, in many ways worse than Russia.

Good to see Biden threaten back at Russia if they use Chemical etc.

I do wonder what the Russian response would be if we said "Stop your shelling, allow people to leave the besieged cities or we will destroy your artillery positions

NFZ would of course mean no drones etc for Ukraine either.

MagicFox · 25/03/2022 08:20

@EsmaCannonball

Russia has cancelled all teaching of political science, sociology and cultural studies in its universities.

Wow. Will it really be able to isolate like this? Maybe the older generation will accept it but what about the younger generation - they have experienced something else, haven't they already had an awakening? Will this really work?

mpsw · 25/03/2022 08:23

@TiddyTidTwo

I cannot get my head around a sovereign European country where people are starving and are drinking out of radiators, drinking water from ditches with rotting corpses and having to eat their own pets to survive. Or those pets are so hungry they are feeding of corpses.

That the way over the red line for me

Are you too young to remember the wars in Europe in the 90s and 00s? The siege of Sarajevo?

This is exactly what siege warfare and destroyed towns and cities look like. A long drawn out conflict where neither side can beat the other is going to be hell for residents who were unable to get out

Ijsbear · 25/03/2022 08:28

Alexandra what's happening in Myanmar is awful but as others have pointed out, it's a civil war and oppression by their own government. It changes things because we don't have the clear right to go in, unlike Ukraine. And proximity does matter .... it would be china's role to step in. If the west did, all hell would break loose. Plus fighting in Myanmar is no easy job.

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