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Ukraine-invasion-part-16

991 replies

PestorPeston · 22/03/2022 23:46

Warsaw Russian is letting out a lot of smoke - there has been no decision on who among them will be the next pontiff.

Biden is going there Friday

Is Boris Johnson the designated survivor?

Who the heck let me be in charge?

OP posts:
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18
TheHateIsNotGood · 26/03/2022 23:14
Ijsbear · 26/03/2022 23:15

(if anyone can point out flaws in this short summary, please do! working off my old studies and some Chinese contacts)

Shuuu · 26/03/2022 23:17

@Sorryfornamechanging

I really can’t get a measure on any of this. So much of it seems to go over my head (details that other posters pick up on and interpret).

Is the feeling that things are looking more positive and less likely to escalate or the other way around (I know no one is an expert here and it’s hard to tell I just wondered what the general feeling is). The china company seems positive but if it’s just because they want to avoid being sanctioned, it doesn’t really mean anything does it? It’s not as though they are picking sides.

I don’t think it’s going to escalate into NATO countries. He’s got more than he bargained for in Ukraine. I don’t think China dealing neutral is such a bad thing. They may hold more power in peace talks by being neutral or the potential to de-escalate. As PP has stated, they’ll do what’s best for them. So far there is nothing to gain by remaining neutral. Time will tell whether they stand to lose anything though
Tuba437 · 26/03/2022 23:22

@sorryfornamechanging I think its hard to tell if things look more positive or not. In regards to peace talks not much has changed. However we may be at a point where Putin has potentially made his own off ramp. With his aims of the invasion so unclear in the beginning, he can essentially declare victory whenever he wants as no one in Russia really knew what his goal was. Even if he can get Ukraine not to join NATO he can go back and claim that as a victory, he can claim de nazification as people didn't really have a clue what that goal meant any way and he could retreat just to the Dombas and claim he has liberated it. All of this he can say is a victory when we all really know it isn't.

I expect if he does retreat to dombass then peace talks will confirm the Not joining nato part, yet talks on Dombass and crimea are likely likely go on for years. Let's not forget there has been fighting in the Dombass for the last 8 years.

Personally I am not so worried about the imminent nuclear threat as I was a few weeks ago and I still think the chances of it escalating out of Ukraine are small. Especially if the Russians do concentrate on the Dombass rather than full occupation.

A worry if this does happen though will be if some countries and companies feel a retreat to dombass is enough for them to drop sanctions. Certainly if they retreated to the east you wouldn't get the 24 hour news coverage that we get now with the war.

I definitely think the next 2 weeks will determine which was this was is going in regards to escalation or de escalation. I'm leaning towards the latter but as so often in the past you just really can't predict these things.

TiddyTidTwo · 26/03/2022 23:25

But they did not expect, no one did, the blazing fury of the West's reaction to the invasion of Ukraine, nor the powerful sanctions. So they are trying to balance a good relationship with Russia, a fundamental incompatability with Western political systems and the economics of the whole affair.

So they're flipflopping*

Good. This is showing a change, albeit a delicate one

Sorryfornamechanging · 26/03/2022 23:25

@TheHateIsNotGood I haven’t seen any indication that the nuclear threat has been upped in recent days unless I’ve missed something. Obviously the overall chance is now higher because of tensions, but I was under the impression there was talk of a war end date, Russia trying to save face and come out of it looking like heroes to the Russian people so “just” focusing on one area of Ukraine etc.. no idea how much if that is real talk or propaganda. Very hard to tell now I find.

Sorryfornamechanging · 26/03/2022 23:30

Cross posted thanks for the replies @Tuba437 and @Shuuu that’s kind of the feeling I’ve been getting. I’ve been trying to stay informed without feeding my anxiety too much - such an evil condition! I’ve been a bit on the fence about going away this weekend - purely because it’s without toddler DS and when my anxiety creeps in I imagine scenarios where I’ll be separated from him in a disaster, so going away while all this is going on sets up that anxiety loop nicely! However of late I have been more hopeful for de-escalation like you say @Tuba437 but, also like you say, impossible to tell really!

Tuba437 · 26/03/2022 23:37

@Sorryfornamechanging

Cross posted thanks for the replies *@Tuba437* and *@Shuuu that’s kind of the feeling I’ve been getting. I’ve been trying to stay informed without feeding my anxiety too much - such an evil condition! I’ve been a bit on the fence about going away this weekend - purely because it’s without toddler DS and when my anxiety creeps in I imagine scenarios where I’ll be separated from him in a disaster, so going away while all this is going on sets up that anxiety loop nicely! However of late I have been more hopeful for de-escalation like you say *@Tuba437** but, also like you say, impossible to tell really!
Definitely go away, I said before there would be a chain of escalation before anything major happening. It would never just go from what it is now to nuclear war in a couple of days even in a worse case scenario.

Right now with them saying they will concentrate in the east it would seem crazy for them to escalate to chemical or tactical nuclear weapons as it would undermine what they have told their own people about everything going to plan etc.

Ijsbear · 26/03/2022 23:40

ISW's dry comment: The General Staff [of Ukraine] asserted that much of Russia’s reserve equipment is unusable or in very poor states of repair, with essential gear—including engines—stripped out of many vehicles.

Ijsbear · 26/03/2022 23:50

It's worth remembering also that Putin, the driver of this war, is fighting more than the Ukraine. From RTB's excellent correlating of pieces of information, Putin is also fighting to restructure his own upper government. Whether because he's dismissed them or they have stepped away, he's fighting more than one battle.

His two trusted sidekicks have disappeared from view and he seems to have been purging some very high level folk. Whomever replaces them is not going to be up to speed and may not have good relations with the actual army chiefs who are running the war.

He's got the media machine very firmly under control but - he's Secret Service in his training, and a master of manipulation but I don't think he knows how to actually be a leader and make -constructive- decisions or to promote the effective instead of the corrupt and win their loyalty. Don't forget he publically humiliates his own chiefs ....

Ijsbear · 26/03/2022 23:54

One thing that is not reported in our press is how heavy the Ukrainian losses are, btw.

RobotValkyrie · 27/03/2022 00:01

A worry if this does happen though will be if some countries and companies feel a retreat to dombass is enough for them to drop sanctions.

Maybe, but I think many countries and companies will also think twice from now on (and for quite a while) before doing any kind of business with Russia, simply because it will appear more risky (what if the war escalates again, what if sanctions are imposed again?)

Businesses don't like risk. They prefer safe bets. Russian lies and Russian aggression have also done massive reputational damage. Who can look at them and think "yep, here's a reliable partner who will totally not try to gaslight and backstab me"?

TheHateIsNotGood · 27/03/2022 00:02

Sorry - i don't think the nuclear holocaust option is top of the list either - just recalling the angst of yesteryear.

Purely from a strategic/geographical position - it does seem that Mariupol will have to go to the Russians as they seem so hellbent on controlling the Asov Sea.

The only way to preserve Mariupol as Ukranian (there's nothing left of the city - it's just a place on a map now) would be to assert it's right to exist as similar to Kaliningrad, the Russian enclave in the Baltic Sea. Otherwise, given thet 90% of the Asoz coastline as well as the channel to the Black Sea is Russian controlled already, being Ukrainian would be made very difficult.

Kaliningrad and it's claim and control of half of Curonia (shared with Lithuania) is definitely something worth using in any negotiations.

Shuuu · 27/03/2022 00:04

@Sorryfornamechanging

Cross posted thanks for the replies *@Tuba437* and *@Shuuu that’s kind of the feeling I’ve been getting. I’ve been trying to stay informed without feeding my anxiety too much - such an evil condition! I’ve been a bit on the fence about going away this weekend - purely because it’s without toddler DS and when my anxiety creeps in I imagine scenarios where I’ll be separated from him in a disaster, so going away while all this is going on sets up that anxiety loop nicely! However of late I have been more hopeful for de-escalation like you say *@Tuba437** but, also like you say, impossible to tell really!
I second going away. As PP said it will not escalate that fast. Plus, don’t forget bidens words “prepare yourself for the long haul”. It’s de-escalating already with Putin now saying he only wants certain parts. We won’t get into a verbal confrontation with Putin and nuked are fired. It doesn’t work like that, nukes would be used at a very very last resort, but I don’t ever think it’ll get that far. Go away, enjoy yourself Flowers
BreadInCaptivity · 27/03/2022 00:05

@RobotValkyrie

A worry if this does happen though will be if some countries and companies feel a retreat to dombass is enough for them to drop sanctions.

Maybe, but I think many countries and companies will also think twice from now on (and for quite a while) before doing any kind of business with Russia, simply because it will appear more risky (what if the war escalates again, what if sanctions are imposed again?)

Businesses don't like risk. They prefer safe bets. Russian lies and Russian aggression have also done massive reputational damage. Who can look at them and think "yep, here's a reliable partner who will totally not try to gaslight and backstab me"?

I agree. Putin has created long term uncertainty in the trading markets that will have a very long term impact on the Russian economy.

Even when sanctions are lifted the "cost" of doing business with Russia will be very heavily assessed from a risk perspective.

TiddyTidTwo · 27/03/2022 00:09

I'm an IFA and I can tell you for certain both my company and the investment management company who look after billions will not be touching Russia with a bloody barge pole for a long, long time unless there's a huge change and I think that opinion is widespread

TheHateIsNotGood · 27/03/2022 00:13

I reckon China has encouraged Putin - after all the rest of the world just wanted to give China a good 'spanking' for unleashing covid upon us. So now all we want to do is annihilate Putin and China gets away with a little 'slap'.

Final laugh on us....

blueshoes · 27/03/2022 00:25

@Ijsbear

It's worth remembering also that Putin, the driver of this war, is fighting more than the Ukraine. From RTB's excellent correlating of pieces of information, Putin is also fighting to restructure his own upper government. Whether because he's dismissed them or they have stepped away, he's fighting more than one battle.

His two trusted sidekicks have disappeared from view and he seems to have been purging some very high level folk. Whomever replaces them is not going to be up to speed and may not have good relations with the actual army chiefs who are running the war.

He's got the media machine very firmly under control but - he's Secret Service in his training, and a master of manipulation but I don't think he knows how to actually be a leader and make -constructive- decisions or to promote the effective instead of the corrupt and win their loyalty. Don't forget he publically humiliates his own chiefs ....

I don't know nuthin' but assuming Putin is not solely in control of the big red nuclear button, I would think that with his senior tier is in disarray, his ability to activate the MAD nuclear option is even more limited as who knows whether his underlings know what to do.
TheABC · 27/03/2022 00:55

Hmmm. I think there may be some serious impetus to the peace talks in the next week.

  • We know morale is low in the Russian army. They have taken staggering losses to the command team and up to 10% of their force is dead or wounded now. It's a stalemate and Putin can't move forward without throwing more men or more lethal weapons into the mix. The first would require mass mobilization - admitting it is a war and they are struggling - the second will depend on there being weapons available that work.
  • Sanctions are biting home. Russia is losing money hand over fist in the economy, at a time they cannot access a third of their reserves and they are financing an expensive war.
  • They've a few good allies but not much in the way of concrete support. Turkey does not want to piss them off (wheat supplies) but they are not lending tanks or munitions. China and India are still buying at arm's length. Neither will risk their own armies to make Russia look good. African nations are broadly in support (wheat again) but the best Russia can expect are mercenaries. Belarus has people volunteering for Ukraine and the "dog ate my homework" excuse.
  • Biden has made it clear that we are not easing up. If Putin hopes to drag it out until the West's attention strays away, that hope has been squashed. In fact, the longer he leaves it, the more time he gives Europe to find alternatives for gas and oil. The same applies to wheat: India is already eying up the gap in the market.
  • By comparison, Ukraine still has a functional Government, financial and military support from 30 different countries and a very angry populace who are highly motivated not to accept Russiian rule. In other words, there's nothing easy about the next phase of the war for Putin.

He needs a ceasefire at the very least to regroup, sort out the internal backstabbing and find fresh soldiers.

RedToothBrush · 27/03/2022 02:22

Have a losy cold (not covid) so Im not sleeping well atm.

The twitter noise today and this evening is interesting. Its full of 'Ukrainian forces have liberated x town or village' in a wide range of places. Sumy Region, Kherson Region, Kyiv Region, Kharkiv Region. So all over. There is also a report suggesting they had stopped a large attack in Luhansk Region and taken quite a number of POWs.

On the other hand Ive also seen a number of reports of taking Ukrainian POWs and
Russian forces have taken control of Slavutych near Chernobyl (Chernihiv Region).

I have certainly not seem anything like this level of Ukrainian gains nor as much on POWs as today.

The other really interesting thing I saw that very few people seem to have picked up on is this apparent withdrawal of Russian troops from Sumy Region, with them apparently returning to Russia.

No one seems to know why or whether they might be redeployed elsewhere. However the key thing is they weren't replaced first. Which does raise the question of whether there is now a concerted strategy to reduce the number of fronts by the Russians.

There does seem to be a change of strategy in terms of Russians digging in. This only works if the logistics are there to back it up though. You can't dig in if you are the poor bastard delivering supplies...

Of course if you suddenly decide to pull a bunch of troops out of the Sumy area, what happens to the Russian troops deeper into Ukrainian land closer to Kyiv?

Theres also been a certain amount of success on the humanitarian corridors, I think the figure I saw was around 5000 with just over 300 people reported to have escaped Mariupol today. Not as many as you'd like to see, but also not zero either.

My point being there does seem to be a change in objective / strategy / focus happening on the ground the day after it was announced there had been a change in Russian objective.

How this will play out I don't know. I do get this sense that in certain places there is almost a complete collapse in the Russian army though. In several cases villages were just left for the Ukrainians to take back without a fight. It just feels a lot more 'ragged' and tired in terms of whats going on generally if that makes any sense.

I don't think what Biden said makes a lot of difference, except to Russian propaganda and Western / Ukrainian morale. Even if people think he said the wrong thing, you'd been hard pushed to find Westerns disagree with it either. Especially since Putin explicitly talked about regime change at the start of the war and tried to bump off Zelensky.

The noise about the state of the Russian high command has been a lot more muted today. The proof of life video was odd on every level. Faked or not, it was not a room full of happy people thinking they were doing well in their jobs.

And still no Putin either on the visibility front.

I think the news about Azerbaijan (which has actually been going on for a number of days but Russia have only just seemed to notice about) is currious. Especially with troops withdrawn from South Osettia to fight in Ukraine.

RedToothBrush · 27/03/2022 03:11

Kamil Galeev @kamilkazani
How sanctions are killing Russia?

Russia's falling. Old sanctions of 2014 sabotaged development of new innovative weaponry. New sanctions of 2022 are undermining Russian military efforts, destroying its technological chains and communications lines, thus breaking country apart🧵

Western analysts greatly overestimate the robustness of Russia. Russians themselves are now talking about the imminent end of this state. Consider a Peskov's slip of tongue: "Special Operation launched to get rid of Russia"

End of Russia - that's what is on the table right now. Consider this talk show of Solovyov - top Putin's propagandist. Their point is - any treaty Russia signs with Ukraine will mark its defeat. That gonna be beginning of the end, not of Putin's regime but of Russian state

Medinsky, Putin's negotiator in Ukraine, claims that "the very existence of Russia is on stake now". Well, then the question arises - how did these guys put Russia on stake? Is it compulsive gambling disorder or what?

Well, they were sure of Russian victory. We have absolute military superiority and can easily crush Ukraine. We may not invade, but if we do, we'll 100% win. This was based on assumption about the invincibility of Russian army. Compare vibe of Russian TV in late February and now

The assumption that Russia gonna win was based on three elements. First, on the mythos of WWII. They conveniently forgot that in WWII Russia fought on the side of greatest economic power and now it's fighting against. See Soviet soldiers on American Studebakers

Many talk of Serdyukov's military reforms. However, efficiency-maxer Serdyukov made interest groups angry and was fired. His successor Shoygu was a court-maxer and PR-maxer more interested in building his personality cult than the army. His flatterers even portray him as Subedei

Many talk of Syrian war, where Russia got "so much experience" proving its fighting capacity. Putin believed in it. Russian generals believed in it. Western "expers" believed in it. Only Russian soldiers didn't. Consider this interview with a Wagner mercenary who fought in Syria

On February 26 Wagner mercenary debunked a myth of "real combat experience" Russian army got in Syria. Aviation got a real experience, air defense too. But the land troops didn't. Those who expect a victorious march through Ukraine are wrong. Ukraine got much stronger since 2015

Other Russian military sources which I'm not gonna quote even argued that Syrian experience was negative for Russian army. For example, much of their role was convoying Syrian and Irani supply caravans through a flar desert where it's difficult to set up an ambush unnoticed

In Syria Russians learnt that convoying caravans is easy. Now they try to repeat this Syrian experience in Ukraine. Being used to convoying caravans through desert, they now convoy them through forests or residential areas. There they get into ambushes and are exterminated

That's why Russian military are so pessimistic about their perspective in Ukraine. Consider Strelkov. For 29 days Russia didn't achieve strategic success on any directions

"My worst fears came true, we get involved into a long, bloody, and very dangerous war"

That's why Russia is losing so many generals. Why are they even being present on frontline? Because Russia is losing and Putin's knows it. He's furious and sending his generals to the frontline to take direct control in order to improve the situation. And there they get killed

Putin launched a war, expecting an immediate victory. Russian propaganda leaflets literally boasted that Kyiv gonna be captured in one day. Yes, that's propaganda. But it reflected a widespread Russian conviction that Ukrainians wouldn't resist

What consuequences will it bring for Russia? Western analysts exaggerate how robust Russia is. Consider this recent article by Nial Fergusson. I think he's wrong. Putin won't be able to reach a result that Russian people will view as a victory. Any treaty will mark Russian defeat

That's why smarter ones of the Russian elite are already trying to get off the sinking ship. Here is Chubays cashing out at an ATM in an Istanbul airport. Chubays is the major architect of modern Russia and he's running away

In 1990s a St Petersburg liberal economist Chubays designed Russian privatization. He purposefully organised it in a most shady and non-transparent way to quickly create lots of rich people owing everything to the regime. That's how oligarchs fortunes were created

By the late 1990s crony "systemic liberals" like Chubays got tired of democracy. They didn't want parliamentarian, didn't want public politics. They wanted a Tsar who'll defend them from the public opinion (which hated them). So they chose Putin and boosted him out of nothing

In 2010s Chubays turned to Russian ethnonationalism. He funded nationalist media such as "Sputnik and Pogrom" who advocated building the "Russia for Russians" in these borders. Chubays is personally responsible for building oligarchy, Putinism and jingoist delusions in Russia

There is hardly any other living person who bears so much responsibility for what is happening in Russia now than Chubays. He created oligarchy, promoted Putin to power, boosted Russian ethnonationalism. He was all powerful and now he ran away. Because he knows Russia is over

Well, Chubays made a good decision - run while you still can. MPs from the United Russia ruling party already can't leave the country without permission. Only smarter ones who escaped before the prohibition are now safe abroad, like Milonov. Others are trapped in Moscow

Now let's finally outline a scenario of collapse. First, sanctions will destroy its technological and supply chains. Many believe in self-sufficiency of Russia. But Russia is not autarkic. It's not an evil empire but a Trade Federation totally dependent on technological import

Machinery is the first victim of sanctions. It's using foreign components on all levels from microchips to bearings. Thus sanctions are destroying:

  1. Military industry
  2. Transport and communication lines
  3. Production of consumer goods

Thus they're breaing Russia apart

Sanctions won't make Putin back off. They won't make Russian people rebel. That'd be a collective action of a huge scale which isn't gonna happen. They will undermine Russian military efforts and incentivize a much smaller scale, easier to do collective action - local separatism

Let's start with military industry. Counterintuitive it may sound, it is especially import dependent. Why? Well, because it's relatively complex. For example, it is the main consumer of precision manufacturing industrial machines in Russia - buying over 80% of these machines

Annexation of Crimea was a major blow on Russian military industry. As Sverdlovsk Oblast minister of industry Sergey Perestorin admitted, Ural plants, including tank producing ones, started having problems with components supply immediately after 2014

Thus new types of Russian weaponry, for example, the Armata tank were never mass produced. Mass production was supposed to commence in 2015 but in 2022 it still didn't, because of the sanctions. Electronic components import, transmissions import, everything sopped after Crimean

There's another aspect of the problem. It seems Russia lost many technological competences and capacities it used to have under the USSR. In the USSR a job of engineer was prestigous and highly paid. Military engineers were kings. But now they're losers with no respect or salary

As a result construction bureaus and engineering institutions didn't get new competent engineers. Some would come after a college but than had to leave, because they had to feed their families. Average age of an engineer in tank industry is now around 55-60 years

That means that while old engineers were dying and retiring, too few capable youngsters came to learn from them. So many competences of old engineers died with them. As then deputy minister of defense Makarov pointed out Russia lost Soviet technologies of producing a tank barrel

No wonder that all the production on Uralvagonzavod, the only producer of tanks in Russia, is now stopped. Old sanctions introduced in 2014 didn't allow to develop new innovative tanks. New sanctions of 2022 don't allow to build any tanks at all

Russian military industry is fully reliant on Western equipment and components. Consider Motovilihinskie Zavody - the major producer of MLRS and artillety systems in Russia. As you see, they are using a turn-mill industrial machine of an Italian company Tacchi Giacomo e Figli SpA

Consider an interview with a CEO of Baltic Industrial Company that supplies Russian military plants. We don't produce industrial machines, bearings, ball screws, spindles. Yeah, Russia can produce lots of "cool" weaponry. But it will fall because it can't produce any boring stuff

Non military industry is dying, too. Car and vehicles plants are stopping for the lack of details and components. They are laying off their workers. Of course some try to find solutions and built new vehicles "from Russian components". Sounds good doesn't work

See this order of Yekaterinburg police. Policemen are not allowed to use their foreign produced cars anymorebecause under the sanction regime they can't re repaired. There are no components for that

Another victim is the railways. Russia switched its railroad cars production from the roller bearings to the cassette bearings. That's more efficient, but all 3 cassette bearing producing plants in Russia are both foreign owned and import dependent. Railways gonna have problems

The railways are the main carcass keeping the country together. Unlike North America they are crucially important not only for transporting goods, but also the people. Most of Russian autoroutes are horrible. It's the railways that connect this country. Soon they'll be disrupted

Russian airlines are disrupting right now. Russia isn't getting new components for its Boeings and Airbuses, won't be able to maintain them. That's why Pobeda airline for example gonna reduce its fleet by 40%. There are so few details that you can't keep all the planes working

Yes, Russia has its own aircraft industry. But the aircraft factories are working on foreign components, too. Rostov aircraft plant closed for the lack of import, so Russian-produced Ан-24 and Ан-26 planes gonna be impossible to repair. They'll function for 5-6 months the most

Consider this interview where a minister and his aides aides discussing that they won't be able to repair the stolen planes abroad. Yeah, they'll try to do it in Russia. Good luck repairing them with the import of components stopped

RedToothBrush · 27/03/2022 03:20

Continued

Kamil Galeev @kamilkazani
Third aspect of Russian fall will be the decrease of supply in literally all consumer goods. Mutually exclusive collectively exhaustive, there are two options: prices can rise or there will be deficit. At this point both phenomena take place. People are shocked by new prices

There's of course a deficit in consumer goods, like sugar. You can see lots of videos of people shouting, fighting, arguing over this precious deficit good

As sugar becomes deficit, incentives to steal and stock it rise exponentially. Here you supermarket workers stealing sugar from its stocks and loading into a car trunk. A woman is commenting:

"That's why they don't have sugar on shelves"

Many will try to enrich on sugar trade. Here a man got arrested for selling a 50kg sack with sugar for above market price. The government is already fighting against the profiteering. Such things will only increase

As you see Russian supermarkets are already restricting the purchases of "socially important goods". Too many try to buy as much as possible to stock it and create the shortage

Now let's think in higher orders. People trying to stock as much as possible is indeed exacerbating the existing deficit. But the thing is - regions and towns are doing the same. It's not individuals stocking sugar that will kill Russia, it's that governors are doing the same

When we think about Russian state we are usually operating in dichotomy Putin vs People. Will people support their leader? Will they rebel? They won't but it's irrelevant. The state is not homogenous. Putin can ignore sanctions but his subordinates can't

Yes, the core electorate of Putin, is standing by their President and will stand by the end. Putin is sacred, they're not gonna blame him for anything. Whom they're gonna blame for their problems, for the lack of food? A corrupt mayor and governor of course

I am not joking. Lots of Putin's supporters are fully supporting Z-invasion. They're also already suffering from the economic problems. Whom they're gonna blame? The governor, that corrupt scum, guilty of everything. Putin is sacred but governor is not

This Russian political culture makes position of regional authorities unbearable. Putin is sacred, innocent, unaccountable. That's the local authority who's responsible for the quality of life. The life quality is deteriorating because of Putin, but governor will be blamed

Now what they're gonna do? Some are trying to encourage return to subsistence farming. Sounds good, doesn't work. Indeed, in the past Russians survived economic crises via their dachas and private gardens. But that culture is gone. Boomers are the last generation who could do it

Subsistence farming is extremely unproductive. It's also extremely laborious and time consuming. It also requires competences that the youngsters simply lack. In the good economy expensive oil years they never learnt how to garden from their babushka and now won't learn quickly

The current economic crises is unique in Russian history. First of all, it's now uniquely old. During the previous crises it was much, much younger. Even more importantly, it is the first crisis that happened after most of population forgot how to do subsistence farming

Russian economic situation is awful. It's a catastrophe which local authorities will be blamed for. What they're gonna do? Stock up. Stock as much as possible. That's already happening. Stavropol doesn't have sugar shortage. Why? They don't allow exporting it to other regions

That will be the major factor of Russian collapse. It's not that regional authorities will suddenly declare independence. They won't, at least for now. It's that they will act in the best interest of their regions. Because if a catastrophe happens there, they'll be blamed for it

In acting in the best interest of their regions under the deficit of literally everything they'll inevitably stock up, thus breaking supply lines and technological chains. With the communication lines deteriorating due to sanctions it will be easier and easier to do

Russia won't fall because of collective morally justified action. It's cohesion will be broken by its own officials aiming to avoid catastrophe in their own region. That will be a de facto economic separatism, political one will come much later

In discussing the collapse of Russia and rise of separatist states on its ruins, many focus on ethnic conflicts and identity politics. That's not completely wrong. I'll argue however that the main drivers of collapse will be geographic and socio economic

The best benchmark for Russian collapse isn't Yugoslavia or Austro Hungary. It's a fall of Spanish Colonial Empire with all of its creoles vs peninsulares divisions. Russia is much more of a Latin American country politics, economy, culture wise than many think. End of 🧵

RedToothBrush · 27/03/2022 03:43

Many many implications here.

Strangely i think there is a paradox. Putin loves power. He lives for it. But he also isn't prepared to die for it I think.

He's a strategic gambler. If he sees an opportunity or a way to make gains he will take it. It does not matter how unpleasant it is.

But here's the thing. What strategic benefit does he get from dropping a nuke?

He has to gamble he won't get one in return.

And what is the purpose of the nuke?

To gain ground? To force Ukraine into peace? I don’t know that dropping either of these produces a scenario where he gains from it.

There is one other alternative. Dropping a nuke, might be the thing that allows Putin to make peace for his domestic audience. But i can't see the west taking that option if presented with it...

The only thing nukes really do in this war, is produce fear and thats enough for the west to take seriously and not send troops / certain equipment.

Why? Because the biggest risk of nukes isn't from a strategically well thought out plan. Its from miscommunication and not reading the other party right.

And despite all of the above potentially meaning that Russia claims about their very survival are actually perhaps justified to a degree....

... But Putin should still keep power.

Therefore what does he gain from dropping a nuke?

Its the fanaticism side of things that could drive it, but Putin doesn't want to die. He likes power too much.

Ukraine can not make peace unless Putin wants it. Thats the bottom line here. No sign of that.

My feeling at this point is that unless something else changes we are locked in for a while. This 'deadline' of early May is interesting. If that passes, I'm not sure what happens. Russia might not be able to sustain a war, but equally Ukraine has limited manpower and its hard to see how they can take back all land lost too. We aren't there yet but we are likely to see something of a stalemate line arise at some point.

I think there is this unknown element or factor we are looking for which hasn't yet appeared in our thinking. And I don't think its nukes.

blueshoes · 27/03/2022 04:13

Wow, lots of food for thoughts there, RedToothBrush

Russia might not be able to sustain a war, but equally Ukraine has limited manpower and its hard to see how they can take back all land lost too. We aren't there yet but we are likely to see something of a stalemate line arise at some point.

I think there is this unknown element or factor we are looking for which hasn't yet appeared in our thinking. And I don't think its nukes.

I agree I don't think it is nukes. That would be Putin's last throw of the dice and he won't be able to come back from that. Interesting that Biden just recently did not rule out first-strike use of nuclear weapons.

I am hoping that by May or not too much later, Russia's economy and ability to re-stock the war machine at all levels will be completely destroyed. Ukraine may be a minnow in comparison but they are constantly being re-stocked with lethal aid and are plucky to boot. They have more than a fighting chance to reclaim their land and freedom.

I am hopeful. But we must keep supporting Ukraine and not let it fade from our consciousness as the war drags on.

MagicFox · 27/03/2022 07:25

Thanks for all this work overnight. Bit early, but thought I'd start a new thread before we lose each other again.

New thread:

Ukraine Invasion: Part 17 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4514749-ukraine-invasion-part-17