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Ukraine-invasion-part-15

999 replies

Ijsbear · 20/03/2022 16:14

Next part.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
Ijsbear · 21/03/2022 21:24

Unconfirmed

Euromaidan Press
@EuromaidanPress
The Uralzavod Corporation and Chelyabinsk Tractor Plant, enterpriseses specializing in manufacturing and repairing tanks and other armored vehicles for t
Russia's Army, have suspended operation due to lack of imported parts - GenStaff, 18.00

OP posts:
Wrongkindofovercoat · 21/03/2022 21:27

Control of the Black Sea is huge though

The whole Naval thing is interesting, there is very little mention of the capacity of the Russian fleet in the Black sea, or other countries Naval asset's in the region, come to that. As I am not on Twitter maybe this has been discussed and dissected ad nauseam and I have missed it ?

notimagain · 21/03/2022 21:28

@Ijsbear

Unconfirmed

Euromaidan Press
@EuromaidanPress
The Uralzavod Corporation and Chelyabinsk Tractor Plant, enterpriseses specializing in manufacturing and repairing tanks and other armored vehicles for t
Russia's Army, have suspended operation due to lack of imported parts - GenStaff, 18.00

Maybe they ought to contact the Ukranian Farmers' Union.

They seem to have plenty of barely used second hand slightly dinked armoured vehicles that could no doubt be cannabalised for spare bits..

PaperTyger · 21/03/2022 21:32

Wrong over coat, it's not mentioned as much as everything else.

notimagain · 21/03/2022 21:33

@Wrongkindofovercoat

Control of the Black Sea is huge though

The whole Naval thing is interesting, there is very little mention of the capacity of the Russian fleet in the Black sea, or other countries Naval asset's in the region, come to that. As I am not on Twitter maybe this has been discussed and dissected ad nauseam and I have missed it ?

Bit of background on this from a few weeks ago here:

www.justsecurity.org/80384/the-russia-ukraine-conflict-the-black-sea-and-the-montreux-convention/

RedToothBrush · 21/03/2022 21:34

[quote TargusEasting]@jgw1 Almost certainly. I am kind of getting a notion now that this war may be going in the right direction.[/quote]
Two threads to maybe debunk that feeling. The first from a fellow at the The Institute for the Study of War and the second from a retired Australian General:

Jennifer Cafarella @JennyCafarella
#Ukraine defeated the initial phase of #Russia’s invasion. On what basis can/should we evaluate Ukraine’s success or failure in this war?

This thread will unpack a few key concepts & arguments

Some point to the siege & bombardment of Ukrainian cities & say this isnt “winning”. We feel it. Deeply. But evaluating outcomes in war requires a careful analytic framework We must study the interaction between 2 military campaigns: #Russia’s offense & #Ukraine’s defense. #Russia invaded #Ukraine in order to conquer it. Ukraine is fighting a war of self-defense for its continued existence as a state. Big picture, Ukraine succeeds or fails based on whether it emerges from this war intact. I’d argue that includes all territory (#Crimea)

However, the lens we use to evaluate the war overall isnt the right frame for evaluating its initial phase. Big picture, every inch Russian forces take is a loss for #Ukraine

But this lens blurs the ebb & flow of the struggle of wills on the battlefield as the war is fought. Analyzing the battle of wills in war requires evaluating each side’s ability to achieve their objectives while denying the adversary’s. #Russia’s objectives when it invaded were to seize #Kyiv, #Kharkiv, #Odesa & force a change in government. It has achieved none.

The logistics, sustainment, & morale problems plaguing Russian forces are well covered. These limitations have certainly hindered #Russia’s campaign. But #Ukraine has also waged a capable defense to deny Russia these objectives. In doing so, it has won an important phase.

Our team assesses that #Russia’s forces have “culminated,” meaning they’ve lost the capacity to continue their campaign as constructed. This doesnt mean they are defeated or can’t fight. Local battles will continue. But the initial campaign is over. A huge win for #Ukraine

Now, a war is more than one campaign. This war is far from over. But #Ukraine has fought #Russia’s forces to a stalemate on many fronts. It has defeated Russia’s initial campaign by denying its objectives & breaking its operational cohesion.

Russian forces will likely regroup & attempt to launch a new campaign. That campaign’s near-term (operational) objectives will likely be lower than those of the initial invasion, now that Russia knows it cant get from here to strategic victory in one bound as #Putin expected

It is also important to unpack what stalemate means. It does not mean an end to the killing. Stalemates can be even more violent than prior phases. Amidst this grinding attrition, #Russia’s violence against #Ukraine’s civilians will likely grow.

RedToothBrush · 21/03/2022 21:34

Major General (just retired!) Mick Ryan @WarintheFuture
Week 4 of the Russian invasion of #Ukraine. Today I examine what culmination (current or pending) of Russian forces in Ukraine means.

Back on 15 March, I wrote that “The Russian campaign, if it has not already, is about to culminate.” In the past 48 hours, there has been a growing consensus that this has either occurred or may occur soon. US doctrine defines culmination as “the point at which continuing the attack is no longer possible and the force must consider reverting to a defensive posture or attempting an operational pause.”

But this is not the end of the war, just a pause. Think November 1914, not November 1918 if you want to use WW1 as an example. The waste of human life at the Somme and Verdun all came well after 1914.

Without any substantive breakthroughs in peace negotiations, the war may enter a new phase. Therefore, what does the proposition that the Russians have culminated mean for Russia, Ukraine and the west?

First, what might it mean for how Russia may rethink their strategic objectives and how they fight the war?

As I have recently written in @smh, it might force Putin to reset his objectives for Ukraine. At a minimum, he will be gathering his small circle of advisors to ascertain what might be achieved after a pause, and what resources would be required.

Noting the commitment of over half of Russia’s ground forces so far, this new ‘theory of victory’ may include some form of national mobilisation of personnel and industry. They may also ‘shut down’ one of their fronts in the east or south to reinforce the north. This would allow them to fix their collapsing tactical and operational logistics system. When picking which part of the Russian military has performed worst in the last month, the Army, the Air Force and the logistic services are all in a close race! An operational pause might also give Putin time to build a domestic constituency for the war. He did not do so before the war. While this would now be a very big task, it is not inconceivable that he could build support for the war among a larger proportion of Russia.

Russia may choose a strategy of attrition. While this broadly works in Russia’s favour, it is worth noting that it is fighting alone in a tightening sanction framework. The US & other nations are pouring weapons & resources into Ukraine & can do so for a long time to come. However, many nations facing worse odds have continued fighting long after it made sense to do so. Just because we think that the resources of the West totally outweigh those available to Russia, it doesn’t mean that this logic is compelling to Putin. Russian forces might therefore settle in for long term sieges of Ukrainian cities (think Sarajevo), without ground assaults to capture them. This would be ‘attrition from afar’ for Russian forces.

This might force the Ukrainians onto the offensive against prepared Russian defences. It would require a change of strategy and tactics from the Ukrainians. They have done very well on the defensive so far – how would they perform on the offensive?

What if Russia does not choose long-term attrition? They may decide to escalate the war, including attacks beyond Ukraine’s borders on the bases that are supplying Ukraine’s defenders. Or it might target border crossing locations where weapons enter Ukraine

What other options does it have? It might seek a breakthrough with a weapon of mass destruction to destroy a portion of the Ukrainian government and military, or to shock it into submission. Russia has a range of weapons it could use in this scenario. This includes tactical nuclear weapons, radiological weapons, massive drone swarms, destructive cyber-attacks, chemical or biological weapons or EMP weapons. Or a combination of the above. The point is that although Russia has been out fought and out thought by the Ukrainians, this only makes them – and Putin – more dangerous. This argument is well made here by @KoriSchake
:www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2022/03/17/russia-military-failing-dangerous/

What might a Russian pause mean for Ukraine? It provides breathing space for reorganising its defences, training new recruits & getting its people out of threatened cities. It also allows time for the Ukrainian government and military rethink their strategy. It also allows for a build-up of supplies (lethal and non-lethal) by the military for the next series of Russian offensives (they will come) as well as for the Government to stockpile food, fuel and other necessities to keep their society functioning.

Finally, a Russian operational pause would provide time for President Zelensky to rest, think and consult more widely about war termination, and what kinds of agreements would be acceptable with Russia. Wars only end through political agreements.

What does it mean for the other nations? It provides time for sanctions to work against Russia. It gives NATO the opportunity to explore a wider range of weapons and supplies to provide to the Ukrainians.

Finally, any break in the fighting would allow non-government organisations time to expand support to displaced Ukrainians, and potentially, enter besieged cities to provide aid. It would also permit 3rd parties to explore options for peace negotiations.

Any culmination or pause in Russia's Ukraine operations is not cause for celebration. Russia will not give up its aspirations that easily, despite military failures and external pressure. Indeed, the most dangerous phase of the war may be ahead. End.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 21/03/2022 21:44

@notimagain Thank you for that link, it has answered a lot of questions I had in one foul swoop Smile

Shuuu · 21/03/2022 21:47

Probably a silly question.

Can Putin financially sustain a prolonged war? With the sanctions placed on Russia. I know he still has trade deals with certain countries & new trade deals with a few too, however are these enough to keep Russia from tanking?!

Also, is it realistic Putin can keep the amount of fallen soldiers secret from Russian people?

ScrollingLeaves · 21/03/2022 21:51

“prettybird

As a counter to those few posters who try to use the existence of the Asov Battalion as a justification for the “need” hmm for Russia to invade in order to “de-nazify” Ukraine quite apart from the fact that both the President and the PM are Jewish confused, this is useful to put the so called "risk" into perspective:”

In the 2019 Ukrainian elections, the far-right nationalist electoral alliance, including Svoboda, National Corpss^, Right Sector, Azov Battalion, OUN, and Congress of Ukrainian Nationalistss^, underperformed expectations. In the presidential electionn^, its candidate Ruslan Koshulynskyii^ received 1.6% of the vote, and in the parliamentary electionn^, it was reduced to a single seat and saw its national vote fall to 2.15%, half of its result from 2014 and one-quarter of its result from 2012.

Quote is from Wikipedia but I’ve checked the sources and I’ve seen the same info across a range of analyses - Wikipedia just puts it the most succinctly.

This article also makes a similar point (although you have to get to near the bottom of it). Genuine Nazi and far-right support is probably higher in other countries - like the USA, Hungary, Poland, France, Belgium, Italy, Sweden….. and so on confused

www.npr.org/2022/03/01/1083677765/putin-denazify-ukraine-russia-history“

@prettybird
Thank you for that interesting and detailed article on this subject.

As someone who is only just now finding out more about Ukraine, I am ignorant about all the issues in this war against them. I am grateful to find out the real background regarding the false Russian nazification claims.

RedToothBrush · 21/03/2022 21:51

@Shuuu

Probably a silly question.

Can Putin financially sustain a prolonged war? With the sanctions placed on Russia. I know he still has trade deals with certain countries & new trade deals with a few too, however are these enough to keep Russia from tanking?!

Also, is it realistic Putin can keep the amount of fallen soldiers secret from Russian people?

I think those are actually million dollar questions. Not stupid at all.

Its what the West is trying to figure out!

We hope he can't.

But its a totalitarian society and North Korea has one of the largest militaries in the world.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 21/03/2022 22:00

But its a totalitarian society and North Korea has one of the largest militaries in the world

The leader of North Korea cannot risk allowing his military out into the real world where people are allowed to read books, listen to music and eat lots of lovely food, he would have a proper revolution on his hands !

Shuuu · 21/03/2022 22:01

@RedToothBrush my thinking is he has had years to prepare for this invasion. He’s set up a new payment system for when he was expelled from swift. What else has he done in preparation.

If you don’t mind, North Korea may have one of the largest military’s but is it powerful? With the issues in north Korea such as lack of food, lack of health care, would these issues be their downfall? Of course their military weapons must be impressive but in terms of man power, are they powerful? Correct me if I’m wrong but are North Korea still overcoming sanctions placed on them by USA. Is there even a possibility the new missiles fired are from north Korea? They seem to like spending in this area.

PaperTyger · 21/03/2022 22:06

It depends on who is willing to prop him up also, India? Pakistan ? Syria! China?

PaperTyger · 21/03/2022 22:08

Shuu

Imagine what the reality of North k military capacity is!
Huge amount of soldiers but as pp said who would let them into the real world.
Poor people of North Korea

Roussette · 21/03/2022 22:09

I remember that NK soldier defector years ago shot trying to escape and he was riddled with ten inch parasitic worms and hepatitis b, malnourished etc, not a healthy fighting force

Ijsbear · 21/03/2022 22:12

Russia wasn't expecting the west's reaction or this level of sanctions. It can't have been. I'm told that too many parts can only be sourced outside Russia.

So things are going to run out and break and he's clearly planned for a self sufficient Russia but nowhere well enough, perhaps.

There was a really interesting article linked in one of the early threads about how Russia is like a mafia state and how mafia states can't produce complex items for long eg the sorts of high precision parts you need in very complex machinery because there isn't enough stability.

OP posts:
SaltedEggplant · 21/03/2022 22:13

but in terms of man power, are they powerful
No, a large part are just used for farming or other manual labour, barely trained, underweight/under fed, smaller in height and muscle, than south Koreans.

Shuuu · 21/03/2022 22:13

The only thing they’d worry me potentially if their undying love for their leader/country. They’d make any sacrifice necessary. Is their a point to brainwashing where their is no return. Or does it appear to be “undying love” through fear?! But I do agree Kim would not want them to be exposed to western ways or any level of freedom/democracy

Ijsbear · 21/03/2022 22:15

@Roussette

I remember that NK soldier defector years ago shot trying to escape and he was riddled with ten inch parasitic worms and hepatitis b, malnourished etc, not a healthy fighting force
Yikes :s
OP posts:
Shuuu · 21/03/2022 22:17

North Korea is bad, nobody leaves & very few go. If you visit North Korea you have a guide with you 24/7 until you leave. You can be shot, beat, imprisoned for smiling on a national mourning day. I believe you cannot talk much to locals, nobody has a mobile phone, internet access etc.

shreddednips · 21/03/2022 22:18

Just catching up! Agree that the million dollar question is what Putin can economically and practically afford to do. I can't picture China making any guarantees about refusing to consider providing military assistance because it can't be seen to bow to pressure from America, but I'm relieved every day when I check the news and see no reports of it actually having done so.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 21/03/2022 22:18

I also think this will be Putin's downfall, its all well and good, stitting pretty at home, pretending you are a hard man, but he is sending very young men out to fight a war that is basically a 'vanity project' for him. The ones that survive the ordeal will come home very disillusioned with that 'vanity project' and there will be many thousands of them. Add to that all the parents, siblings and friends of the fallen. He might want to really think about increasing his security.

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 21/03/2022 22:21

It is rumoured that the shopping centre in Kyiv was bombed because a person took a picture of the military personnel and trucks stationed there, from a higher vantage point, and then posted it on their social media. Same night it was bombed. If that's true then it wasn't because of russian spies, drones etc but can you imagine the burden on that person?

Shuuu · 21/03/2022 22:24

amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/feb/28/putins-war-tests-chinas-nuclear-pact-ukraine/

I wonder how China sees this? Or whether they are going to be claiming no knowledge of this agreement.