Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Ukraine-invasion-part-15

999 replies

Ijsbear · 20/03/2022 16:14

Next part.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
EsmaCannonball · 21/03/2022 20:05

Re: Hungary. Are there mechanisms to boot a country out of the EU? Are there worries Hungary could pal up with Serbia to foment trouble in that region? It feels like some really unpleasant alliances are forming.

PestorPeston · 21/03/2022 20:06

The bit in that CNN piece where the very old man says that the Germans were much nicer invaders is heart wrenching.

TargusEasting · 21/03/2022 20:11

@RedToothBrush

Jimmy *@JimmySecUK* In the same - now deleted article - the Russians admit to losing 96 fixed wing aircraft and 118 helicopters.

Significantly these two numbers are almost identical to Ukrainian Ministry of Defence estimates..

That is strong corroboration then. Later, much later, when more facts emerge I suspect we will learn the equipment pledged to assist Ukraine was already there (and the training also).
RedToothBrush · 21/03/2022 20:13

EMPR.MEDIA @EuromaidanPR
Ukrtelecom has just restored the Internet in #Kherson and the region - State Special Communications

Alexandra2001 · 21/03/2022 20:22

[quote AlecTrevelyan006]Ukraine is winning

www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/ukraine-is-winning-war-russia/627121/[/quote]
An interesting article.

Russia will take Mariupol, (god alone knows what the Russians will do with the survivors....) then move its attention to Odesa, which effectively gives Russia the entire coast.

No peace deal will see Russia give that up.

Maybe Western intelligence services aren't saying Ukraine is winning because ultimately it cannot unless the West gives different weaponry.

TargusEasting · 21/03/2022 20:26

@PestorPeston I was not specifically referring to the military instructors and observers that nations have been sending to each other for decades. I was referring to the announcements since the invasion of military equipment. The likelihood is that it was already there before it was announced. US business principles in play and they just issued the invoice.

PaperTyger · 21/03/2022 20:26

Victor orban is extraordinary, I can't believe they are in the.eu

jgw1 · 21/03/2022 20:31

@RedToothBrush

Re the dead numbers

Michael Weiss @michaeldweiss
So either someone published something they shouldn't have at KP or Ukraine's foreign intelligence operations HUMINT or SIGINT are also worthy of our belated attention.

I have been wondering this for some time. the Ukrainian intelligence seems to be very good. How much outside help are they getting with that? It may be that the weapons shipments and training that we are being thanked for is also actually thanks for other help that those that know don't want to talk about.
TargusEasting · 21/03/2022 20:33

@jgw1 Almost certainly. I am kind of getting a notion now that this war may be going in the right direction.

AgnesWestern · 21/03/2022 20:40

I’ve been out at an event tonight , I’ve tried to look back through the messages on here but it’s not letting me see them all for some reason, so I apologise if this has already been covered.

I saw this tweet earlier, does this mean they’ve decided to implement a no fly zone? I can’t quite make out what it means.

Again sorry if it’s been posted already.

Ukraine-invasion-part-15
Shuuu · 21/03/2022 20:44

I’ve seen reports of Zelensky stating any security decisions will need a referendum from Ukrainian people. Im hoping this is a sign things are going well with negotiations

DuncinToffee · 21/03/2022 20:46

Kevin Rothrock
Here’s a statement from KP: they say they were hacked.
My two cents: I buy this explanation. There’s been a lot of this stuff happening, the numbers made no sense in the context of the article, and the MoD has made no such announcements. An internal protest is always possible, but it would amount to the same thing, ultimately.
twitter.com/KevinRothrock/status/1506006785596948484?t=RcK7FCUkbXdUmT8zXXC_ew&s=19

PestorPeston · 21/03/2022 20:46

Hang on, we can't have world war 3, WW2 hasn't ended www.reuters.com/world/russia-halts-japan-peace-treaty-talks-over-sanctions-2022-03-21

Russia and Japan have still not formally ended World War Two hostilities because of the standoff over the islands known in Russia as the Kurils and in Japan as the Northern Territories.

While the Ukrainian war occupies the headlines, how many other power plays are going to happen?

Shuuu · 21/03/2022 20:47

@AgnesWestern

I’ve been out at an event tonight , I’ve tried to look back through the messages on here but it’s not letting me see them all for some reason, so I apologise if this has already been covered.

I saw this tweet earlier, does this mean they’ve decided to implement a no fly zone? I can’t quite make out what it means.

Again sorry if it’s been posted already.

I think this means better air defence
Rowgtfc72 · 21/03/2022 20:47

I thought they were united in the idea but hadn't actually put pen to paper.

jgw1 · 21/03/2022 20:49

@AgnesWestern

I’ve been out at an event tonight , I’ve tried to look back through the messages on here but it’s not letting me see them all for some reason, so I apologise if this has already been covered.

I saw this tweet earlier, does this mean they’ve decided to implement a no fly zone? I can’t quite make out what it means.

Again sorry if it’s been posted already.

It is a group of MPs from a variety of countries making noise for their own reasons, it is not the governments of those countries.
DuncinToffee · 21/03/2022 20:49

Laurence Norman @laurnorman

Chernobyl staff rotation complete. @iaeaorg “Ukraine informed the IAEA that the long-delayed rotation of technical staff at the Chornobyl Nuclear Power Plant was completed today, enabling them to go home and rest for the first time since Russian forces took control -1-
of the site last month, @rafaelmgrossi said. Ukraine’s regulatory authority said about half of the outgoing shift of technical staff left the site...yesterday & the rest followed today,” except 13 staff members who declined to rotate. Most Ukrainian guards also remained. -2-
“The new work shift also comes from Slavutych and includes two supervisors instead of the usual one to ensure that there is back-up available on the site, the regulator said. An agreement had been reached on how to organize future staff rotations at the” plant, IAEA said. -3-

TargusEasting · 21/03/2022 20:50

@PestorPeston

Hang on, we can't have world war 3, WW2 hasn't ended www.reuters.com/world/russia-halts-japan-peace-treaty-talks-over-sanctions-2022-03-21

Russia and Japan have still not formally ended World War Two hostilities because of the standoff over the islands known in Russia as the Kurils and in Japan as the Northern Territories.

While the Ukrainian war occupies the headlines, how many other power plays are going to happen?

Yes, I have wondered what would happen if Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands. Specifically, what would Spain's position be.
RedToothBrush · 21/03/2022 20:51

@AgnesWestern

I’ve been out at an event tonight , I’ve tried to look back through the messages on here but it’s not letting me see them all for some reason, so I apologise if this has already been covered.

I saw this tweet earlier, does this mean they’ve decided to implement a no fly zone? I can’t quite make out what it means.

Again sorry if it’s been posted already.

See my post at Mon 21-Mar-22 15:28:30

Its lobbying. Nothing more.

Ijsbear · 21/03/2022 20:54

Maybe Western intelligence services aren't saying Ukraine is winning because ultimately it cannot unless the West gives different weaponry.

You can't say you're winning until it's much clearer than it is now. Russian firepower is still massively greater.

Can't help thinking that the savagery of Mariupol might backfire on the Russians. With the fierceness of the Ukrainian fury, they might fight on until they've retaken if they carry on this hard, and can still have the resources.

OP posts:
AlecTrevelyan006 · 21/03/2022 20:56

Whatever ‘victory’ Russia achieves now will not have been worth the cost to them. They have lost far more than they can ever win. And it’s mainly Putin’s fault.

Ijsbear · 21/03/2022 21:00

Control of the Black Sea is huge though.

OP posts:
blueshoes · 21/03/2022 21:00

A ray of hope to Ukraine's defences? The U.S. is hoping to provide additional air defenses to enable Ukraine to create a de facto no-fly zone, since the U.S. and its NATO allies have rebuffed Ukraine’s requests for a NFZ.

Wall Street Journal "U.S. Sending Soviet Air Defense Systems It Secretly Acquired to Ukraine"
March 21, 2022

www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-sending-soviet-air-defense-systems-it-secretly-acquired-to-ukraine-11647878422

The Pentagon over the years has acquired Soviet equipment as part of a clandestine program, and now such weapons are going to Ukraine

WASHINGTON—The U.S. is sending some of the Soviet-made air defense equipment it secretly acquired decades ago to bolster the Ukrainian military as it seeks to fend off Russian air and missile attacks, U.S. officials said.

The systems, which one U.S. official said include the SA-8, are decades old and were obtained by the U.S. so it could examine the technology used by the Russian military and which Moscow has exported around the world.

The weapons are familiar to Ukraine’s military, which inherited this type of equipment following the breakup of the Soviet Union.

The Pentagon declined to comment on the U.S. decision to reach into its little-known arsenal of Soviet weapons, which comes as the Biden administration is mounting a major push to expand Ukraine’s air defense capabilities.

The U.S. over the decades has acquired a small number of Soviet missile defense systems so that they could be examined by U.S. intelligence experts and help with training American forces.

The Ukrainian government rejected Russia’s deadline to lay down weapons in Mariupol; a security camera captured the attack on a shopping center in Kyiv; the United Nations said the war has forced 10 million people to abandon homes.

The secretive efforts received public attention in 1994 when a Soviet-made transport plane was observed at the Huntsville, Ala., airport within sight of a major highway. It was later disclosed that the plane was carrying an S-300 air defense system that the U.S. had acquired in Belarus as part of a clandestine project involving a Pentagon contractor that cost $100 million, according to a former official involved in the mission.

The S-300—called the SA-10 by NATO—is a long-range, advanced air defense system intended to protect large areas over a much wider radius. The SA-8 is a short-range, tactical air defense system designed to move with ground forces and provide cover from aircraft and helicopters. While the SA-8 has a shorter range, it is highly mobile and potentially easier to hide.

Some of the Soviet-style weapons have been kept at the Redstone Arsenal in Alabama, which its website notes serves as “the Army’s center for missile and rocket programs.” At least some of what the U.S. sent was from that base, said officials, who added that C-17s recently flew to a nearby airfield at Huntsville.

The S-300 from Belarus wasn’t among the systems that are being sent to Ukraine, one U.S. official said.

The annual government spending bill recently passed by Congress and signed into law by President Biden includes language that authorizes the administration to transfer to the Ukrainian military and to North Atlantic Treaty Organization partners aircraft, ammunition, vehicles, and other equipment that is either already overseas or in existing stockpiles.

Staffers with Sen. Joni Ernst (R., Iowa), who advocated for the language, said Soviet-era air defense systems would be covered by the new legislation. Congress was notified about the U.S. decision, officials said.

Ukraine already possesses some Russian air defense systems, including the S-300. It needs more such systems, however, that can operate at medium and long range to blunt Russia’s aircraft and missile attacks. The shoulder-fired Stinger missiles that the U.S. and NATO nations are providing to Ukraine are only effective against helicopters and low-flying aircraft.

The U.S. is hoping that the provision of additional air defenses will enable Ukraine to create a de facto no-fly zone, since the U.S. and its NATO allies have rebuffed Ukraine’s appeals that the alliance establish one. Such a step, Biden administration officials have said, could lead to a direct confrontation between the U.S.-led alliance and Russian forces, which it is determined to avoid.

Mr. Biden is traveling to Brussels this week for a NATO summit to discuss “ongoing deterrence and defense efforts” for Ukraine, White House spokeswoman Jen Psaki said. Vice President Kamala Harris, Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin also have visited the eastern bloc to discuss ways to bolster Ukraine’s defensive weapons.

“We are continuing to work with our allies and key partners to surge new assistance, including Soviet- or Russian-origin antiaircraft systems and the necessary ammunition to employ them, every day to Ukraine,” a U.S. official said.

Mr. Austin last week visited Slovakia to explore if the country would send an S-300 from its arsenal. Slovakia has said that it would do so if the U.S. would provide it with a replacement, but such an arrangement has yet to be agreed.

American-made weapons such as the Patriot air defense system are in short supply and require American military personnel or months of U.S. training to operate. German and Dutch Patriot units are being sent to Slovakia as a stopgap, those governments have said.

“We’ve been in discussion” with the U.S., Slovakia Minister of Defense Jaroslav Nad’ told reporters during a joint press conference with Mr. Austin on Thursday. “Should there be a situation that we have a proper replacement or that we have a capability guaranteed for a certain period of time, then we would be willing to discuss the future of [the] S-300 system.”

PaperTyger · 21/03/2022 21:04

Omg those poor buggers from Chernobyl!
Imagine the relief to get off site; those poor poor people what an immense weight on their shoulders

One hopes some good sas types slipped in with the rotation ( but I realise that's incredibly unlikely)

Swipe left for the next trending thread