Ukraine Invasion Part 14

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@Ijsbear

So they try to implement a peace deal, and return to fighting if it fails. In which case they're only in the same position as they were before anyway.

[quote Yeahthat]@Ijsbear

So they try to implement a peace deal, and return to fighting if it fails. In which case they're only in the same position as they were before anyway.[/quote]
@lgsbear I agree with the above. If Zelensky agreed the terms, whatever you think of Putin there is no risk to Ukraine and may save Ukraine from further disaster. The legal agreements can state that the deal is on the basis of certain things within a certain time, and if that doesn't happen deal is off. No risk.

Yes, if peace talks were on the table, having watched Putin for 15 years I would dismiss them.

Get Russia back to the border then tell him the terms - and warn your allies. Who have been warned, but dismissed it. The countries bordering Russia knew and warned the complacent West. We didn't listen, and we sold out to the oligarchs.

Yes, if my adult sons went to war I would respect their decision, as any parent should respect the free will of their children. Anything else is controlling another adult's free will and it would be my problem were they killed. I don't have the right to dictate their choice and I would respect that they have something they truly felt was worth taking extreme risk for.

If I was younger I would go myself. Because when the shit really hits the fan you have to decide what you will stand for, and what you will risk dying for.

If you haven't had to face that then you need to consider what it is like to live where you have to guard your words, what it is like to walk down the street and not meet others' eyes, and you have to consider that when the Berlin Wall was in danger of falling, that massive crowds of people were willing to be shot in their stand for freedom-of-speech.

They got betrayed by the West badly but there is a fundamental need in people to be able to speak freely.

I have compassion but not all that much patience for people who shout for peace because they are scared. Life isn't safe. If you thought it was, you've been cushioned and if you're lucky you'll reach the end of it safely, but it really is not what is 'normal'. Look at history.

[quote Yeahthat]@Ijsbear

So they try to implement a peace deal, and return to fighting if it fails. In which case they're only in the same position as they were before anyway.[/quote]
Not that easy.

Putin would, if necessary, agree but then plan for a regroup and reattack and given his extraordinary ability to cause strife, he'd do it.

Then we'd be back at square one, because he -will- go to war again, but next time he'll make sure he has much more chance at winning.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-60699588
Watch: Our correspondent goes into no-man's land with the Ukrainian army

The BBC's Quentin Sommerville and cameraman Darren Conway have spent a week with Ukrainian forces in Kharkiv as they fight to stop a further Russian advance.

The eastern city has suffered nightly Russian airstrikes and shelling, with dozens of civilians killed and hundreds injured.

Extraordinary journalism

@Ijsbear

Yes, if peace talks were on the table, having watched Putin for 15 years I would dismiss them.

Get Russia back to the border then tell him the terms - and warn your allies. Who have been warned, but dismissed it. The countries bordering Russia knew and warned the complacent West. We didn't listen, and we sold out to the oligarchs.

Yes, if my adult sons went to war I would respect their decision, as any parent should respect the free will of their children. Anything else is controlling another adult's free will and it would be my problem were they killed. I don't have the right to dictate their choice and I would respect that they have something they truly felt was worth taking extreme risk for.

If I was younger I would go myself. Because when the shit really hits the fan you have to decide what you will stand for, and what you will risk dying for.

If you haven't had to face that then you need to consider what it is like to live where you have to guard your words, what it is like to walk down the street and not meet others' eyes, and you have to consider that when the Berlin Wall was in danger of falling, that massive crowds of people were willing to be shot in their stand for freedom-of-speech.

They got betrayed by the West badly but there is a fundamental need in people to be able to speak freely.

I have compassion but not all that much patience for people who shout for peace because they are scared. Life isn't safe. If you thought it was, you've been cushioned and if you're lucky you'll reach the end of it safely, but it really is not what is 'normal'. Look at history.

As far as I'm concerned, you just won the thread 😊

@Ijsbear

Yes, if peace talks were on the table, having watched Putin for 15 years I would dismiss them.

Get Russia back to the border then tell him the terms - and warn your allies. Who have been warned, but dismissed it. The countries bordering Russia knew and warned the complacent West. We didn't listen, and we sold out to the oligarchs.

Yes, if my adult sons went to war I would respect their decision, as any parent should respect the free will of their children. Anything else is controlling another adult's free will and it would be my problem were they killed. I don't have the right to dictate their choice and I would respect that they have something they truly felt was worth taking extreme risk for.

If I was younger I would go myself. Because when the shit really hits the fan you have to decide what you will stand for, and what you will risk dying for.

If you haven't had to face that then you need to consider what it is like to live where you have to guard your words, what it is like to walk down the street and not meet others' eyes, and you have to consider that when the Berlin Wall was in danger of falling, that massive crowds of people were willing to be shot in their stand for freedom-of-speech.

They got betrayed by the West badly but there is a fundamental need in people to be able to speak freely.

I have compassion but not all that much patience for people who shout for peace because they are scared. Life isn't safe. If you thought it was, you've been cushioned and if you're lucky you'll reach the end of it safely, but it really is not what is 'normal'. Look at history.

Amazing post.

I have to believe peace talks will happen and be successful eventually.

@Ijsbear you sound much braver than me. But I have never been in the position these people have. However I would do anything to save my son’s life and if that meant surrending to the enemy I would. Not sure what that makes me, probably a coward. I may have had different thoughts before I became a parent, but it’s how I feel today.

I just hope this all comes to an end soon, with the least deaths possible going forward.

I don’t believe war is the answer and I’m also thinking of joining the next campaign for nuclear disarmament or the equivalent.
I think what Putin is doing/has done is abhorrent. I just keep hoping he has some humanity left, which is where peace talks come in.
I’m the type of person who tries to see the good in everyone. I wish I wasn’t like this but I am, it’s a bit of a curse really.

@AgnesWestern

I have to believe peace talks will happen and be successful eventually.

@Ijsbear you sound much braver than me. But I have never been in the position these people have. However I would do anything to save my son’s life and if that meant surrending to the enemy I would. Not sure what that makes me, probably a coward. I may have had different thoughts before I became a parent, but it’s how I feel today.

I just hope this all comes to an end soon, with the least deaths possible going forward.

I don’t believe war is the answer and I’m also thinking of joining the next campaign for nuclear disarmament or the equivalent.
I think what Putin is doing/has done is abhorrent. I just keep hoping he has some humanity left, which is where peace talks come in.
I’m the type of person who tries to see the good in everyone. I wish I wasn’t like this but I am, it’s a bit of a curse really.

I am wholeheartedly with you on this. Also not sure what it makes me but, quite frankly, I couldn't give a hoot.

@Ijsbear

Yes, if peace talks were on the table, having watched Putin for 15 years I would dismiss them.

Get Russia back to the border then tell him the terms - and warn your allies. Who have been warned, but dismissed it. The countries bordering Russia knew and warned the complacent West. We didn't listen, and we sold out to the oligarchs.

Yes, if my adult sons went to war I would respect their decision, as any parent should respect the free will of their children. Anything else is controlling another adult's free will and it would be my problem were they killed. I don't have the right to dictate their choice and I would respect that they have something they truly felt was worth taking extreme risk for.

If I was younger I would go myself. Because when the shit really hits the fan you have to decide what you will stand for, and what you will risk dying for.

If you haven't had to face that then you need to consider what it is like to live where you have to guard your words, what it is like to walk down the street and not meet others' eyes, and you have to consider that when the Berlin Wall was in danger of falling, that massive crowds of people were willing to be shot in their stand for freedom-of-speech.

They got betrayed by the West badly but there is a fundamental need in people to be able to speak freely.

I have compassion but not all that much patience for people who shout for peace because they are scared. Life isn't safe. If you thought it was, you've been cushioned and if you're lucky you'll reach the end of it safely, but it really is not what is 'normal'. Look at history.

Think that sums it up for me really.

There isn't just an option to 'make peace' if that means living under repression and fear for yourself, your children and grand children.

I can't imagine just surrending Kent to invaders 'because'.

People who live under occupation often don't last very long, if they are the 'wrong' kind of person.

See history.

Feel the same @AgnesWestern, sending you solidarity

Just catching up. These threads move so fast, I popped out for a few hours and came back to find another thread has come to a finish so was pleased to see a link to Part 14💐

I dont think peace talks mean shit. I think that actually the Ukraine needs to keep fighting, with weopons support from the West, until they literally push the Russian soldiers right back to the border and definitely no further.
The reason?
Putin sees talking as weakness. The only, only language he understands is someone standing up to him.

I agree @Ijsbear.
He doesn't do talking, he is probably finding the whole back and forth of the 'peace' talks rather tedious and boring but has to maintain a facade of being 'reasonable'.

Meantime what he is really interested in is bombing the shit out of Ukraine and taking control of it.

As awful as it is, is there another non NATO European country/people that would be able to stand up to Russia as the Ukrainians have? They are leading from the front along with military (and non military) support from most of the rest of the world and they are doing their absolute best to hand Putin his arse on a plate.
Fight fire with fire, that is what Putin understands.

@AgnesWestern

I have to believe peace talks will happen and be successful eventually.

@Ijsbear you sound much braver than me. But I have never been in the position these people have. However I would do anything to save my son’s life and if that meant surrending to the enemy I would. Not sure what that makes me, probably a coward. I may have had different thoughts before I became a parent, but it’s how I feel today.

I just hope this all comes to an end soon, with the least deaths possible going forward.

I don’t believe war is the answer and I’m also thinking of joining the next campaign for nuclear disarmament or the equivalent.
I think what Putin is doing/has done is abhorrent. I just keep hoping he has some humanity left, which is where peace talks come in.
I’m the type of person who tries to see the good in everyone. I wish I wasn’t like this but I am, it’s a bit of a curse really.

You are aware of Syria, right?

Then he's doing the same again in Ukraine.

How can you be even concieving of the idea that he has some humanity left?!

Trying to see the good in everyone is pretty fucked in the head when you are talking about Putin.

Not to invoke Godwin, but did you do think the same when doing history at school?

@Thewayshetalks I’ve just been reading them and they are scary as anything but as always we will have to wait and see what unfolds. I don’t hold out hope for the peace talks either but I am having one of those evenings where I’m in a bit of a panicky spiral.

Just pondering on two things that come up quite often re West

That we are complacent and the NATO part

I’m not sure there was a way to navigate through all this in the last however long not to reach this point

Earlier action ie sanctions etc may have brought it forward, Ukraine still being taken as part of Putin’s ambition.

If we hadn’t done various things eg oligarchs I still think we’d be here.. maybe others can see a path where we wouldn’t be

@RedToothBrush I look for humanity in everyone, but I don’t always find it. I’m really struggling with Putin. He probably cares about his own children and grandchildren, but no one else’s. Obviously there are people throughout history who did completely evil and disgusting things, but I’m not sure anyone is ‘born evil’.
For the record, I think Putin is a horrible human being, I just meant I can’t give up hopes on peace talks and an end to all this, as it feels like giving up completely, to me anyway, others will have different opinions I know.

I’m lucky in that I’ve been cushioned from harm and I grew up in the 90s and early 2000s (born in 89) so haven’t had to experience much myself and I know I’m very fortunate in that sense.

It’s hard to know what we’d do (or I would do rather) but watching the 2014 footage I felt removed from that reality here in U.K., grateful and also admired the courage and determination

That is now being felt x100

The Kyiv Independent @KyivIndependent
Over 320,000 Ukrainians return home since the beginning of war.

According to the State Border Guard Service, most Ukrainians returning home are men.

Thats quite a few reservists....

[quote AgnesWestern]@RedToothBrush I look for humanity in everyone, but I don’t always find it. I’m really struggling with Putin. He probably cares about his own children and grandchildren, but no one else’s. Obviously there are people throughout history who did completely evil and disgusting things, but I’m not sure anyone is ‘born evil’.
For the record, I think Putin is a horrible human being, I just meant I can’t give up hopes on peace talks and an end to all this, as it feels like giving up completely, to me anyway, others will have different opinions I know.

I’m lucky in that I’ve been cushioned from harm and I grew up in the 90s and early 2000s (born in 89) so haven’t had to experience much myself and I know I’m very fortunate in that sense.[/quote]
I don’t hold out much for his humanity but I do for the peace talks because an off ramp to save face might help as it has historically at times

If we hadn’t done various things eg oligarchs I still think we’d be here.. maybe others can see a path where we wouldn’t be

I think you're right. Other countries haven't pandered to him or influential/wealthy/crooked Russians and they're still vulnerable to the world being as unstable as it currently is.

In our case, it's just got an extra nasty tinge to it

@MarshaBradyo that’s what my DP just said. He doesn’t trust Putin, but he thinks that Putin will need an off ramp and a way to save face, so that’s where peace talks become useful.

Yes, if my adult sons went to war I would respect their decision, as any parent should respect the free will of their children. Anything else is controlling another adult's free will and it would be my problem were they killed. I don't have the right to dictate their choice and I would respect that they have something they truly felt was worth taking extreme risk for

Load of hot air from someone who hasn't had to to be in that situation.
Have a google on Jack Kipling and how his death transformed his fathers patriotic views.

If I was younger I would go myself. Because when the shit really hits the fan you have to decide what you will stand for, and what you will risk dying for

You really don't know that, its just a theory.

I think what Putin is doing/has done is abhorrent. I just keep hoping he has some humanity left, which is where peace talks come in.

He doesn't. Hoping he does is your wish to believe that every single person cares and can be reached. But people like Putin, Assad, Mao Tse Tung, going back as far as Hipparchos and Hippias, care only for themselves and their own interests.

Wise up, kind AgnesWesten, but don't loose your compassion for others. Direct it at the people you can make a difference to with your actions, because that's what actually matters.

@Alexandra2001

Yes, if my adult sons went to war I would respect their decision, as any parent should respect the free will of their children. Anything else is controlling another adult's free will and it would be my problem were they killed. I don't have the right to dictate their choice and I would respect that they have something they truly felt was worth taking extreme risk for

Load of hot air from someone who hasn't had to to be in that situation.
Have a google on Jack Kipling and how his death transformed his fathers patriotic views.

If I was younger I would go myself. Because when the shit really hits the fan you have to decide what you will stand for, and what you will risk dying for

You really don't know that, its just a theory.

You have no idea.

@Ijsbear I work supporting mostly vulnerable people with mental health in the community, it’s a local mental health charity, so I guess my personality trait of seeing the good in everyone is useful in this scenario.