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Ukraine Invasion Part 14

999 replies

MagicFox · 17/03/2022 14:49

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Yeahthat · 19/03/2022 21:17

@notimagain

Interesting. I hadn't heard of it. That's more or less the scenario for the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

But surely in the case of two nuclear-armed powers, selective release doesn't work? A response in kind would be guaranteed, and after a nuclear exchange has taken place, it's impossible to desescalate? So once the decision is taken to launch nuclear weapons, they can only aim to totally decapacitate the enemy.

Igotjelly · 19/03/2022 21:19

It’s not so much about downplaying it, it would obviously be horrific. But what good does it do to completely destroy your quality of life now because of something that may or may not happen? (As someone with chronic anxiety it’s a question I ask myself daily).

On top of that there are people in Mariupol literally dying of starvation and with no access to clean drinking water. It feels a bit self indulgent for me to worry about a hypothetical catastrophe when there are real people suffering unimaginably.

shreddednips · 19/03/2022 21:19

[quote notimagain]@Yeahthat

The scenario also doesn't make sense to me because the missiles have multiple warheads and indepedent targets.

I didn’t see the programme but there has always been a credible scenario where one warhead might be used to hit a single target (“selective release”) in order to make a point/encourage negotiation.

Sounds to me like that might be one of the more survivable options being postulated in the broadcast.

Obviously an all out attack on the UK would be a different matter.[/quote]
I haven't watched the programme, but I've read some of the war game exercises carried out by the RAND corporation that were carried out with an escalation following a conflict in Ukraine in mind. The upshot of their analysis was that the most likely nuclear use scenario would be Russia launching the first strike in an attempt to deescalate the situation through aggression. RAND seemed to think that the most likely scenario was a low-yield weapon into the sea, military target or into an unpopulated area as a sort of warning shot. Of course, what would happen after that is anyone's guess, we don't want anyone crossing the nuclear line AT ALL because of the risk of spiralling, but I think the consensus was that a first strike on a city is unlikely.

I'm generally anti anything that encourages a 'relaxed' attitude to nuclear weapons because it would be extremely dangerous if leaders viewed them as a legitimate tool that could be used to win or gain the upper hand. A nuclear war would be catastrophic. On the other hand, in the very unlikely event that this actually happened, it's worth survivors knowing how to protect themselves as much as possible.

Glad to hear that the contributors think the overall risk is still low.

Ijsbear · 19/03/2022 21:20

I don't think it's that bad @Yeahthat. If a limited battlefield nuke or two is used then the entire bloody world would rise up against Putin. Everyone has too much to loose by nuclear escalation. It's surely unlikely to go from 0 -100 in one go. There'll be a lot of rather pointed discussions the moment anyone uses even a small nuke.

I didn't see the program tho and I've no training in any of this.

Yeahthat · 19/03/2022 21:24

@Ijsbear

Yes but the programme was discussing a strike on the UK.

In that case it's almost certain that we'd respond equally.

Ijsbear · 19/03/2022 21:27

ah, okay.

shreddednips · 19/03/2022 21:32

[quote Yeahthat]@notimagain

Interesting. I hadn't heard of it. That's more or less the scenario for the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

But surely in the case of two nuclear-armed powers, selective release doesn't work? A response in kind would be guaranteed, and after a nuclear exchange has taken place, it's impossible to desescalate? So once the decision is taken to launch nuclear weapons, they can only aim to totally decapacitate the enemy.[/quote]
That's not the gist I got from my research, I'll try to find the link to the documents. Hopefully I'm remembering correctly, but I think the consensus was that the response would be proportionate, with attempts made to stop the situation getting more out of control. This would make sense, because NATO launching everything it has at Russia in response to a limited strike with few casualties would be completely disproportionate. Of course, the risk would be that NATO would fire a similar weapon back to show strength, at a similar target, and then things start to ramp up.

Sorry if I'm alarming anyone with this by the way Sad I still think this is all incredibly unlikely.

Ijsbear · 19/03/2022 21:38

Tbh right now worrying about nuclear strikes on the UK seems rather small compared to the humanitarian catastrophe going on in Mariupol.

PaperTyger · 19/03/2022 21:42

AgnesWestern

I am glad you had a nice day in the sun today . I really enjoy the DM, and I dip into many other sources and papers. Its hillarious on here how people write " sorry its the Dm", its main paper of Mn Grin. NEVER sorry - its the mirror or the Sun and sometimes sorry its the Guardian.

But for me - my interest in in Putin the man - how is he> if he is a man with no family ties anymore and cut off then he is very very lethal. If he is really coming to rallies - protecting his family and so on - then actually - he is man who wants to live.

Why have we gone back to all the nuclear talk again?

Well - we are all living under this heightened threat are we not>

If we werent then Nato would gone into Ukraine and easily driven back Putin the reason we are not doing that is because this sword of Damaclese is hanging over us?
However unfortualty I think the longer the powers that be allow putin to call the shots and we are merely reactive the worst it will become.

holliem91 · 19/03/2022 21:42

Ok thank you @MarshaBradyo & @Igotjelly

PaperTyger · 19/03/2022 21:44

Tbh right now worrying about nuclear strikes on the UK seems rather small compared to the humanitarian catastrophe going on in Mariupol.

^^ so whats your plan for this>

Personally as I mentioned earlier a colomn announcing they are peace keeping - will not fire unless fired upon just go in, and surrounded humanitarian issue flash points without anyone permisson. Enough - but - oh - we cant do that because of Mad putins nuclear thing..

shreddednips · 19/03/2022 21:45

[quote AgnesWestern]@PaperTyger Piece of advice. Don’t read the Daily Mail.

He’s had long conversations on the phone with Macron and the German Chancellor, he’s also spoken to the Turkish prime minister recently and the Israeli one too.
So I’m doubting the daily mail’s information on that.
How on earth do they know who he’s been talking to in his private life?!
Supposedly he’s always been very very secretive about his daughters and possible other children by his mistress. And his daughters are in their 30s now! Apparently it’s not even common knowledge if they’re names are what they’re reported as.

So I’d definitely take all of that with a huge pinch of salt.
I’m pretty sure he was there at the rally but they were using some old footage mixed in with the new, when it was put out on TV. I’m not sure why, but some theories is that there was booing in the audience, other theories that the stadium wasn’t as full as they wanted , so they added some extra shots to make it look busier.[/quote]
Yes I think you're right, Putin makes a point of revealing nothing about his family life. He's spoken about how he doesn't discuss it, I can't remember the exact quote but he said something along the lines of not wanting to fuel vile, erotic imaginings. I'm not sure anyone is having erotic imaginings about him, but there we go.

AgnesWestern · 19/03/2022 21:46

@PaperTyger I don’t think we’ll be going in, as NATO is a defensive alliance, that protect others in NATO and unfortunately Ukraine isn’t, as we know.
I don’t think it’s just the nuclear threat holding them back.
It would also give Putin reason to prove his point about ‘The West’ being evil and wanting to kill Russian soldiers and getting involved where they aren’t officially obliged to do so.

PaperTyger · 19/03/2022 21:46

Are the Russian people scared I wonder of NATO or the west aiming a bomb at the Kremlin?

Many people are now saying - Putin has got his nuclear kit ready so should we.

But - its putins state of mind and who is he talking to thats crucial

MagicFox · 19/03/2022 21:47

@Ijsbear

Tbh right now worrying about nuclear strikes on the UK seems rather small compared to the humanitarian catastrophe going on in Mariupol.

But it's not small? It IS a concern. That doesn't mean that people anxious about it and wanting to discuss it don't care about the absolute disgusting and inhumane awfulness going on in Mariupol. This black and white thinking papers over so much complexity and interconnectedness. I think so many are shocked by the reality of the horror that we're seeing - the world is not what we imagined it to be, we've been in bubbles. It's frightening and awful in all respects. Assuming what is happening might not effect us and so we should be grateful and shut up is also pretty shortsighted. It makes sense to be worrying! Sorry if this isn't what you meant, but I get the worry

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AgnesWestern · 19/03/2022 21:49

@PaperTyger I trust the people making decisions at the top, they’re not taking these decisions lightly. They wouldn’t even send those Polish MiG jets the other week.
They’ve made it clear they’re not getting involved militarily.

MagicFox · 19/03/2022 21:49

[quote AgnesWestern]@PaperTyger I don’t think we’ll be going in, as NATO is a defensive alliance, that protect others in NATO and unfortunately Ukraine isn’t, as we know.
I don’t think it’s just the nuclear threat holding them back.
It would also give Putin reason to prove his point about ‘The West’ being evil and wanting to kill Russian soldiers and getting involved where they aren’t officially obliged to do so.[/quote]

Agree with this

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PaperTyger · 19/03/2022 21:49

@AgnesWestern

We are very much not going in purely do to nuclear reactions!

Without a nuclear deterrant do you really think all these wealthy millitairly sophistcated nations would be standing by watching them die?

WeAreTheHeroes · 19/03/2022 21:49

I didn't watch that Channel 4 programme, but appreciate the info on it.

I've been wondering whether that rally yesterday was intended to be a victory rally for the invasion and rather than cancel it, it was 'repurposed' because who celebrates the 8th anniversary of anything?

shreddednips · 19/03/2022 21:50

[quote AgnesWestern]@PaperTyger I don’t think we’ll be going in, as NATO is a defensive alliance, that protect others in NATO and unfortunately Ukraine isn’t, as we know.
I don’t think it’s just the nuclear threat holding them back.
It would also give Putin reason to prove his point about ‘The West’ being evil and wanting to kill Russian soldiers and getting involved where they aren’t officially obliged to do so.[/quote]
I agree, even if it's been mulled over I can't see a consensus being reached among NATO members.

PaperTyger · 19/03/2022 21:51

It would also give Putin reason to prove his point about ‘The West’ being evil and wanting to kill Russian soldiers and getting involved where they aren’t officially obliged to do so.

^^ if it wasnt for a nuclear threat who - who in this earth gives a shit abot what jumped up madman Putin says or does>>>

He is a vile dictator who has seized power in Russia just when it was starting to enjoy proper freedoms!

Ijsbear · 19/03/2022 21:51

He's probably trying to ensure their safety. He's got enemies, some of whom are highly ruthless and I wouldn't be surprised if he himself has kept some people in line by threatening their families.

This may be fanciful but I'm told that it's close to reality that bioweopons based on an individual's genetic code are not that far off, possibly why Macron refused to take the Russian Sputnik vaccine. Perhaps Putin is rather careful about his family because of that too. If someone got a sample of a blood relative's blood, could that be used to manufacture a bioweopon? (If I'm off with the fairies, tell me!)

holliem91 · 19/03/2022 21:52

@PaperTyger

Well yes but the last time we were talking about nukes on a previous thread, a Russian doomsday plane was on its way to bunkers, people were starting to do things they'd put off for a while and Russia had told the west he was going to put them in their place.

I'm very aware it's a heightened threat (my anxiety won't let me forget it) but I'd not been on this thread all day so was just catching up and was seeing posts about nuclear war so wondered if something had happened.

On another note... I had a dream last night that Putin came round for dinner and poisoned meHmm strange though as I don't feel like I've been worrying much recently but it's probably all been bothering me subconsciously.

Ijsbear · 19/03/2022 21:52

.. about his family, that is.

PaperTyger · 19/03/2022 21:54

@PaperTyger I trust the people making decisions at the top, they’re not taking these decisions lightly. They wouldn’t even send those Polish MiG jets the other week.
They’ve made it clear they’re not getting involved militarily.

  1. they are making descions purely based on will Putin aim a nuke at us or not.

  2. My personal feelings are he wont - if he is stable and sane - which I am lurching between yes or no.