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Ukraine Invasion Part 14

999 replies

MagicFox · 17/03/2022 14:49

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smilingthroughgrittedteeth · 19/03/2022 19:15

@Igotjelly no scare mongering just conversations with various 'experts' about how nuclear weapons work, what would happen and the likely hood of Putin using it. Different perspectives but most agreeing they dont think we are at risk of a nuclear attack.

Also one person just said he thinks we should we prepared in telling people what to do in the unlikely event we were attacked by a nuclear weapon but that although public perception is that it would mean the uk being wiped out thats actually not true.

MarshaBradyo · 19/03/2022 19:18

[quote smilingthroughgrittedteeth]@Igotjelly no scare mongering just conversations with various 'experts' about how nuclear weapons work, what would happen and the likely hood of Putin using it. Different perspectives but most agreeing they dont think we are at risk of a nuclear attack.

Also one person just said he thinks we should we prepared in telling people what to do in the unlikely event we were attacked by a nuclear weapon but that although public perception is that it would mean the uk being wiped out thats actually not true.[/quote]
Sounds quite interesting

I’m reading Richard Rhodes The Making of the Atomic Bomb and it’s fascinating - talking about the discoveries that led to where we are

I find scientific explanation is good for lowering worry as it becomes interesting (a coping tactic from a health scare for dc, I find science calming )

Onceuponatimeinalandfaraway · 19/03/2022 19:19

@smilingthroughgrittedteeth that’s why I prefer c4 news to bbc and sky, though it’s been years since I watched either of them, it seems to me to be less dramatising and more measured. They’ve had a Russian ex mp on tonight and omg how he stayed civil to her I don’t know!

notimagain · 19/03/2022 19:23

I’m reading Richard Rhodes The Making of the Atomic Bomb and it’s fascinating

Top book that…if you have the stamina try his follow up “Dark Sun” next.

smilingthroughgrittedteeth · 19/03/2022 19:24

@Onceuponatimeinalandfaraway i totally agree it is much less dramatic its factual which like @MarshaBradyo i find calming, i prefer explanations and scientific views than the heart string pulling headlines that evoke an emotional response rather than rational thought.

Igotjelly · 19/03/2022 19:24

So general consensus is I don’t need to be digging a shelter just yet?

weddingday2009 · 19/03/2022 19:25

@AgnesWestern

I went out today with friends and have been enjoying the nice weather. I’ve not been looking at this thread as often or social media/the news and I have been feeling much better for it.

Just thought I’d mention that in case others want to do the same, especially if they’re struggling with it all, as I am.

I've done this today but then when I get home the dread of it all kind of hits again. It's just awful.
smilingthroughgrittedteeth · 19/03/2022 19:26

@Igotjelly pretty unanimous that no digging is required yet

Ijsbear · 19/03/2022 19:28

I can't get C4 here, can someone summarise the arguments briefly please?

Prefer the rational and laywoman-level-scientific- approach too.

wonderfullife123 · 19/03/2022 19:39

@AgnesWestern

I went out today with friends and have been enjoying the nice weather. I’ve not been looking at this thread as often or social media/the news and I have been feeling much better for it.

Just thought I’d mention that in case others want to do the same, especially if they’re struggling with it all, as I am.

This is really good to hear. I've done the same. I am an anxious type and was becoming very anxious. My dad gave me some good advice. I'm going to try to follow - only look at news once a day, be careful of sources and Twitter, take what all protagonists say with pinch of salt- we are going to hear lots of sabre rattling now and need to put in context and keep perspective.
AgnesWestern · 19/03/2022 19:49

@weddingday2009 I know how you feel. I wake up in the morning feeling ok and then it hits me and I get this sinking in my stomach feeling Sad

What helped me recently was reading a guardian article about the 1980s and living through the threat of nuclear war then. It also had a quote from Michael Rosen who remembers the 1960s Cuban Missile Crisis and said his father would have anxiety dreams, bearing in mind his father would have lived through WW2 as well.
Michael Rosen said you eventually get ‘anxiety fatigue’ from it all. That’s how I’m feeling most days, I get to the end of the day and I feel so tired. And I’ve realised it’s all the emotional anguish I’ve put myself through during the day. And how tense I’ve been.

smilingthroughgrittedteeth · 19/03/2022 19:56

@Ijsbear

I can't get C4 here, can someone summarise the arguments briefly please?

Prefer the rational and laywoman-level-scientific- approach too.

Almost everyone agreed that Putin is using the threat of Nuclear war to control the west and stop NATO 'overstepping'

Some talk about what weve learned from Chernobyl in that those in the blast zone would die from either the actual blast or severe burns pretty quickly but that those in the fallout zone wouldnt necessarily have long term affects and that there have been far fewer longer term affects on people than would have been expected and the biggest consequence was children diagnosed with thyroid cancer which is considered to be easily treated.

What would be most likely is smaller weapons used in Ukraine which would mean NATO implementing a no fly zone which would then have a WW3 knock on effect but they still thought this was an unlikely scenario.

If a Nuclear bomb was used on the UK it wouldnt wipe us out so that particular expert felt we should be given advice on what to do in the very unlikely event it did happen so people felt informed and not so panicked. Advice from 1970's is outdated and wouldnt help us today so he felt we needed to update advice but still an unlikely scenario.

Ijsbear · 19/03/2022 20:02

Thanks very much smiling

Sounds pretty sensible ....

We have iodine tablets for the kids since we live nearish a fairly decrepit Belgian nuclear power plant ... Hmm

Natsku · 19/03/2022 20:05

That's quite reassuring, I didn't realise that the effect in the fallout zone wasn't as bad as I thought. And iodine pills would prevent the thyroid cancer issues in children.

Natsku · 19/03/2022 20:06

Is nuclear winter not an issue then?

holliem91 · 19/03/2022 20:12

Thanks for that @smilingthroughgrittedteeth

That's reassuring to hear although it's still something I hope doesn't happen.

smilingthroughgrittedteeth · 19/03/2022 20:18

@Natsku

Is nuclear winter not an issue then?
His words were "theres a preconception amongst the public that a nuclear bomb landing on the uk would wipe us out and thats not the case at all"
RedToothBrush · 19/03/2022 20:18

@Ijsbear

I wish Merkel would get involved too.

Why aren't there more attacks on Odessa? Is everything concentrating on Mariupol at the moment?

I rather wonder if Putin would settle for a large corridor to the East of the Dneiper. (I imagine Zelensky would quite rightly refuse to give up anything though).

I believe that a lack of attacks on Odesa is being attributed partly due to focusing on Maripol and partly because they haven't got enough marines to do a decent landing atm.

To launch a decent attack the expectation is they need to take Mykolaiv. So far the Ukrainians have done particularly well in the area. The regional head is Vitaliy Kim who has become a national hero because of his defence so far.

Mykolaiv is on a river. As is Voznesensk which was the site of a very significant battle early on (there was a report on it, which detailed how they were picking up Russian bodies a week later). This town/village was the last defendable place before the Southern Nuclear Plant. I'm not sure what the name of the river is, but the point is the Russians have as yet, been unable to progress to the west of this River.

This makes an attack on Odesa (apparently Odesa is the Ukrainian spelling, a double s is Russian).

Anyway, this has happened in Mykolaiv today.

news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-dozens-of-soldiers-feared-dead-after-attack-on-mykolaiv-barracks-while-troops-slept-12570330
Ukraine war: Dozens of soldiers feared dead after attack on Mykolaiv barracks 'while troops slept'

Up to 200 people are thought to have been inside the barracks in Mykolaiv when they were attacked.

So this could well be a significant blow, both in strength and in psycology.

Things in Mariupol, also look to be coming to a close, so the expectation would be that Mykolaiv would be one of the more natural next targets, rather than Odesa.

In terms of Mariupol there are more disturbing reports coming from Ukrainian sources this evening. I stress this is unverified, but there is talk that civilians are being forcibly rounded up and taken to Russia.

The NY Times official line on this is as follows:
Cliff Levy @cliffordlevy
Mariupol official accuses Russian forces of kidnapping thousands of Ukrainians and taking them to Russia, where he says they could be compelled into forced labor.
His claim could not be independently verified, but it was supported by accounts from others.

Mariupol residents said they heard from friends and neighbors who relayed having been taken to Russia without their consent by Russian forces.
"Russians are walking through the basements, and if there are people left there, they forcibly take them.”

Apparently 4000 - 5000 people have been taken across the border to Taganrog with suggestions they are being dispersed to various Russian cities with documents that oblige them to stay in these places for 2 years and get a job. Ukrainian passports have been removed. (Advisor of the Mayor of Mariupol).

Of course with so many people dead / missing etc in Mariupol its going to be difficult to work out what might have happened to many people if these reports are true.

There is also significant fears of a troop build up on the Belarus/Ukrainian border near Poland, with the thought being this is being done to cut off western deliveries. This doesn't sound at all good. From a strategic point of view it makes a lot of sense. Belarus sending in its own troops would mark a clear escalation of the war though and will worry many. Particularly as things move closer to the Polish border.

Finally, the other thing I've noticed today in my first catch up on the day is this:

Reuters is also reporting that China's Vice Foreign Minister Le Yucheng said at security forum in Beijing that "The sanctions against Russia are getting more and more outrageous," , adding that Russian citizens were being deprived of overseas assets "for no reason". He made the point that Globalisation was being used as a weapon and that NATO were to blame for the conflict.

Again this doesn't sound terribly good following Biden's call with Xi.

Re: Syria and UAE. This is being suggested as a natural thing as Assad relied on Russia's support and it now looks likely that they will exit Syria, so Assad needs to look for support elsewhere.

To say this hasn't gone down well in the US, well look at this:

David Cloud @DavidSCloud
Blistering on-record US response to UAE welcoming Bashar al-Assad: “We are profoundly disappointed & troubled by this apparent attempt to legitimize Bashar Al-Assad, who remains responsible & accountable for the death & suffering of countless Syrians,” said State’s Ned Price…1/
“…As Secretary Blinken has reiterated, we do not support efforts to rehabilitate Assad; and we do not support others normalizing relations. We have been clear about this with our partners…” 2/
“…We urge states considering engagement with the Assad regime to weigh carefully the horrific atrocities visited by the regime on the Syrians over the last decade, as well as the regime’s continuing efforts to deny much of the country access to humanitarian aid & security…” 3/
“…The United States will not lift or waive sanctions and we do not support the reconstruction of Syria until there is irreversible progress toward a political solution, which we have not seen…” 4/
“…We believe that stability in Syria and the greater region can only be achieved through a political process that represents the will of all Syrians. We’re committed to working with allies, partners, and the UN toward a durable political solution." 5/

So things today are sounding increasingly bad, and as if Russia, perhaps are beginning to regroup and get a grip.

LittleRedYoshi · 19/03/2022 20:18

I've heard a fair bit about what other countries are doing about iodine pills - does anyone know what the situation is here (UK)? I assume it's not a matter of simply buying them from a pharmacy, but nor have I heard the government talking about providing it, like they have in other countries.

smilingthroughgrittedteeth · 19/03/2022 20:19

@Natsku

That's quite reassuring, I didn't realise that the effect in the fallout zone wasn't as bad as I thought. And iodine pills would prevent the thyroid cancer issues in children.
My fear came from being in the fallout zone rather than the blast zone and i do feel much more reassured now.
RedToothBrush · 19/03/2022 20:23

Yaroslav Trofimov @yarotrof
Russian state news agency shows the panic buying of sugar in Russian stores. Supermarkets in Kyiv are fully stocked meanwhile, despite Russian bombing. And Ukrainians stand in lines with dignity when they have to.

And is this more positive???

Anders Åslund @anders_aslund
Ukraine's Ministry of Defense announces that the enemy has been stopped in nearly all directions, and he has been driven away 70 km from Kyiv.

I have heard that Russian troops have been relocated due to losses (just trying to find where I saw this again and whether this might correlate).

Igotjelly · 19/03/2022 20:27

@RedToothBrush

Yaroslav Trofimov *@yarotrof* Russian state news agency shows the panic buying of sugar in Russian stores. Supermarkets in Kyiv are fully stocked meanwhile, despite Russian bombing. And Ukrainians stand in lines with dignity when they have to.

And is this more positive???

Anders Åslund @anders_aslund
Ukraine's Ministry of Defense announces that the enemy has been stopped in nearly all directions, and he has been driven away 70 km from Kyiv.

I have heard that Russian troops have been relocated due to losses (just trying to find where I saw this again and whether this might correlate).

Definitely positive. The Ukrainians should be very proud with how they’re conducting themselves generally.
Yeahthat · 19/03/2022 20:28

His words were "theres a preconception amongst the public that a nuclear bomb landing on the uk would wipe us out and thats not the case at all

@smilingthroughgrittedteeth

I didn't watch it - was the scenario they were working on that Russia would launch a single nuclear weapon against the UK at a time and then sit back and wait for the response?

Snorkelface · 19/03/2022 20:29

@Natsku

Is nuclear winter not an issue then?
@natsku - yes but no one knows to what extent, very difficult to simulate and after nuclear war became less likely in the 90's, after years of nuclear fear, the focus started to shift on to the effects of climate change instead. As @AgnesWestern says the 80s was very focused on the nuclear threat, it was all Ban the Bomb and CND, it was part of the everyday. We got taken to Greenham Common on a field trip to the women's camp when I was at school by a hard campaigning teacher.
smilingthroughgrittedteeth · 19/03/2022 20:34

@Yeahthat a single bomb or that it would be a larger one and smaller ones that would be shot out the sky i think

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