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Ukraine Invasion Part 14

999 replies

MagicFox · 17/03/2022 14:49

New thread

OP posts:
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25
MarshaBradyo · 18/03/2022 16:32

@EsmaCannonball

I don't agree that trade and soft power with dictatorships are a good thing. All that's happened is dirty money from those regimes corrupting our systems, and cultural connections serving as effective PR exercises for them, resulting in a kind of endless apologism and muddied ideological clarity on our side. The last few weeks have shown the West has been an absolute, gullible, money-grubbing fool.

I also don't agree that sanctions play into the hands of hardliners, as hardliners seem to thrive without them. If Putin doesn't go, and if Russia doesn't have some kind of Orange Revolution of its own, then there's no way we should go back to business as usual. I keep on reading comments about what Ukraine should do in negotiations, or how Zelenskyy is determined to continue with the war, and I just want to go all Basil Fawlty and shout, 'But Russia invaded Ukraine!' All this talk about what Ukraine should give up when it's Putin who has the agency to end this war immediately by stopping invading Ukraine.

I’m with you on the latter - all Putin’s doing

But the first one what does that look like in reality? Idk football club processes really but when it was in process of being bought should it have been a hard no?

Also just say you had a house in central London and the bidder was an extra couple of hundred thousand (just making it up) would you have said no?

All the little transactions add up, or do you mean some kind of sanctions on individuals before this war.. which year would you have started

I get the abstract comments but always interested in the detail

Notonthestairs · 18/03/2022 16:36

The new register of foreign ownership of property will be helpful in throwing light on investment in the UK - if it is ever introduced. We can do more to protect our economy from money laundering.

EsmaCannonball · 18/03/2022 16:54

Apparently Russia has prevented around 300 ships from leaving the Black Sea since this war started. Most of these ships were carrying grain and other foodstuffs. Russia is applying its own version of sanctions on the world, the difference being these sanctions are being inflicted through force. Ships from Panama, Bangladesh and Estonia have been hit by Russian fire. In its typically Orwellian relationship with the truth, Russia is claiming the blockade is to protect ships from Ukrainian mines, and that any damaged or sunken ship has hit one of these mines.

shreddednips · 18/03/2022 16:54

According to the BBC live feed, signs are good vis a vis China. Still quite vague though!

MarshaBradyo · 18/03/2022 16:56

I’m pleased re China

It may be quite abstract but it’s better than where we were a week ago

RedToothBrush · 18/03/2022 17:04

@Igotjelly

This is where I’m a bit confused, there is talk of the US/UK and/or others providing security guarantees to Ukraine as part of any deal. In what way is that better for Russia than Ukraine being in NATO?
I've got to say, Im beginning to read a split within EU / NATO about how far each country is prepared to go.

The Czech, Slovak and Polish PMs went to Kiev. They have one important thing in common and empathise with Ukraine in ways others can not.
The Polish wanted to give the MIGs. And were trying to persuade others before the US said No.
Meanwhile the British trained up the Ukrainians are were in Ukraine prior to the war in some capacity. We've also been some of the most hawkish in terms of the military equipment we've supplied.
Meanwhile the Germans are pretty silent and only reluctantly have agreed to many of the sanctions.
The French havent exactly gone much further and Macron seems to be having a bromace with Putin on speed dial.
The Latvians, Lithuanians, Finns and Sweden are thinking about their own borders and are more worried than others.
The US have been harsh and pushing on the sanctions and diplomacy but seem reluctant on the military side of things.

Theres now talk of the UK being the one to support the Ukrainians with a military alliance (note Putin got most pissy with the UK)

And then Ive seen this thread today which starts to give some incite into the differences economically.

Mujtaba Rahman @mij_europe
Senior EU officials have an incredibly dire assessment about likely trajectory of Russia's war of aggression in Ukraine over next few weeks. But there is no appetite among member states - bar Poland & Baltics - for energy import bans against Russia coal, oil & certainly not gas 1/

Some reasons: 1) we've done a lot & need to digest/assess impact; 2) first need to see details of @EU_Commission plan in May on Russia energy decoupling (Versailles statement); 3) wariness about implications of further oil price spikes for developing economies reeling from Covid 2/

4) Need to hold some sanctions in reserve; 5) need ability to sustain those in place over time as > costs hit EU populations/economies; 6) lots else EU can still do eg blocking Russian shippers access to EU ports; oligarch listings/assets; expanding SWIFT; trade restrictions etc 3/

There is also growing annoyance viz Poland in EU capitals/Brussels who believe Warsaw's constant agitating for oil and gas sanctions minimises the significance of the measures that have already been taken and the costs to member states these will entail 4/

Warsaw's tactics to get EU capitals to move on oil/gas are also counter-productive: initially opposing a deal on carbon taxes (CBAM); on OECD minimum-tax; holding last week's Versailles meeting hostage by demanding a carve-out for coal from its energy/climate transition etc.. 5/

Biological/chemical weapons or the targeted, limited use of nuclear weapons would be a clear red line. Otherwise, the expectation of most senior officials in Bxl/EU capitals is that for now, the EU will escalate only the quantity - not quality - of sanctions 6/

But the transmission mechanism - whether President @ZelenskyyUa can keep mobilising global public opinion, in turn forcing EU leaders to move much further on sanctions policy than they would like, will be key 7/

Then, the devastation of more Ukrainian cities including Kyiv, Russian attacks on humanitarian corridors, mass killings of civilians, an "accidental" missile strike in a NATO member could all serve as poss triggers for EU leaders = quicker movement on coal, oil - & as a last resort, gas 8/

A phased approach is also under consideration - "a coalition of the willing" - so member states with less dependence on Russian coal & oil would move first in response to any of the above, while those whom are more dependent would keep using Russian energy in the short term 9/

But overall, the very clear mood among member states is to pause & expand incrementally. The threshold for energy import bans is very high. Reinforced by the fact the Versailles discussion staged by France on more common fiscal borrowing/support ended badly (more on this later)
ENDS

So basically it sounds like France, Germany and rest Western EU are a lot more softer touch on both military and economic options.
The US is hard on the economics but lighter on the military. And going harder on the other international diplomacy.
The UK is a mixed bag. It was slow on some sanctions but is increasing and keen to keep watertight legally but doesn't go far enough on personal sanctions but is harder on broader sanctions (fuel and payments). But is one of the most hawkish.
Meanwhile Eastern European countries are much more nervous, with Poland being the most determined on all fronts.

My feeling is the UK are the only one willing / able to put anything forward in support at this time in terms of military support and capability. The US is much more reluctant to commit, whilst others are either more reliant on the US or plain Doves.

Incidentally given the UK were already training Ukrainians prior to the war, this wouldn't be a massive departure from that policy. It would be a step up, yes but not as much as it might seem on the face of it.

I also get the impression that the UK is trying to persuade others to be prepared to act alone outside Nato because they is a lack of consensus going on.

Could be wrong but thats my reading.

shreddednips · 18/03/2022 17:04

@MarshaBradyo

I’m pleased re China

It may be quite abstract but it’s better than where we were a week ago

I'll reserve judgement as it's soooo vague, but I've got everything crossed!
TiddyTidTwo · 18/03/2022 17:10

"So basically it sounds like France, Germany and rest Western EU are a lot more softer touch on both military and economic options.
The US is hard on the economics but lighter on the military. And going harder on the other international diplomacy.
The UK is a mixed bag. It was slow on some sanctions but is increasing and keen to keep watertight legally but doesn't go far enough on personal sanctions but is harder on broader sanctions (fuel and payments). But is one of the most hawkish.
Meanwhile Eastern European countries are much more nervous, with Poland being the most determined on all fronts.

My feeling is the UK are the only one willing / able to put anything forward in support at this time in terms of military support and capability. The US is much more reluctant to commit, whilst others are either more reliant on the US or plain Doves.

Incidentally given the UK were already training Ukrainians prior to the war, this wouldn't be a massive departure from that policy. It would be a step up, yes but not as much as it might seem on the face of it.

I also get the impression that the UK is trying to persuade others to be prepared to act alone outside Nato because they is a lack of consensus going on.

Could be wrong but thats my reading"

Basically NATO is a pile of shit. I'd put money on Russia straying into Poland and NATO's separate countries will protect their own interests and they will fanny around wondering what to do whilst Putin pisses himself laughing. He knows. That's why he's done what he's done.

I don't believe the uk feel that way but we are part of NATO. Shame

Onceuponatimeinalandfaraway · 18/03/2022 17:11

[quote elephantmarchingin]@Onceuponatimeinalandfaraway I think you post was aimed at me.

Yesterday there was a development that was scary. Planes taking off including doomsday planes is not usual and not reassuring and yes it caused panic.

I have also contributed to the threads so not just all panic!

There was this argument the other day and it's just not needed! [/quote]
No it wasn’t aimed at you. Honestly not, there’s a few, I’d have to go back and reread to get usernames as they mostly only post to say omg is this nuclear war now, then they vanish again. I know you posted that you were scared but you then stayed here and continued interacting and calmed yourself down and yes you join in the conversation the rest of the time too.

“I’m scared that this will now escalate” or “I’m scared about what this means”is very different to “omg this is definitely nuclear war now”. There have been a few of the latter posts throughout the threads. By users who are not interacting much apart from those one or two line posts. Then someone sees that post, having not read the last few pages and that sparks more panic.

@purpleboy I wasn’t trying to say emotion not allowed, I agree it does belong here, this is for support as well as facts. However finding ways to deal with anxiety is going to be necessary. Some of that may well be asking here for reassurance but it is the Ukrainian people who need to be panicking right now, not us.

Things have changed, we are not going to go back to how we were a month ago.I very much doubt. It may be years before the threat of nuclear war dies down completely again. So people who are going straight to “omg nuclear war now” every time there’s a slight change in reports from Russia or on flight radar really do need to learn to put the steps in between calm and panic.

Fwiw there has never been even a whole decade gone by where there was no war somewhere in the world I don’t think, I once went back through every ten years to see, I can’t remember how far back I went I know I got rather depressed that even after the two world wars the world as a whole wasn’t at peace for even ten years. War is not new, it being a threat on Europe’s doorstep is new for anyone under 30, and a vague memory for under 50s especially those who didn’t study history. But it’s not new to have wars or refugees, it’ is new not to be calling them horrid names and suggesting they shouldn’t be allowed to come here.

PestorPeston · 18/03/2022 17:15

Russian forces have bombarded and encircled Mariupol for weeks, stopping desperately needed aid from getting in, and stopping people from getting out.

A harrowing account, not for the faint hearted
twitter.com/rshereme/status/1504579756221558792

Yeahthat · 18/03/2022 17:23

@TiddyTidTwo

NATO is committed to mutual defence of its members. It's not a world policeman. I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion that, "it's a pile of shit", because it hasn't gone to war in Ukraine.

How do you square this with it recently deploying tens of thousands of troops to Norway and increasing its presence in the Balkans?

MagicFox · 18/03/2022 17:27

The threat to global security that's on all our minds right now has to bring the world together, rather than consolidating those dangers. This article is sobering but its call feels so intensely important. Is there hope that the solutions proposed here might happen? I want to live in a world where there is. It will go one way or the other and I hope it's the right way.

english.alaraby.co.uk/opinion/humanity-one-minute-midnight

OP posts:
MagicFox · 18/03/2022 17:31

Hmmm, thoughts on this re China's position?

twitter.com/royngerng/status/1502304312373903364?s=21

OP posts:
TiddyTidTwo · 18/03/2022 17:31

*NATO is committed to mutual defence of its members. It's not a world policeman. I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion that, "it's a pile of shit", because it hasn't gone to war in Ukraine.

How do you square this with it recently deploying tens of thousands of troops to Norway and increasing its presence in the Balkans?*

It's members. You see I don't like that especially watching genocide on a neighbouring European sovereign country. There's being well they're not nato so, you know....

Wrong. Morally wrong and Putin is using that

MissConductUS · 18/03/2022 17:36

My feeling is the UK are the only one willing / able to put anything forward in support at this time in terms of military support and capability. The US is much more reluctant to commit, whilst others are either more reliant on the US or plain Doves.

Counting the most recent package, the US has provided almost a billion euros in military aid to Ukraine in the last year.

www.euronews.com/next/2022/03/04/ukraine-war-these-countries-are-sending-weapons-and-aid-to-forces-fighting-the-russian-inv

I can't seem to find a recent comparable number for the UK. Is it more?

TiddyTidTwo · 18/03/2022 17:39

"Counting the most recent package, the US has provided almost a billion euros in military aid to Ukraine in the last year"

Generous, granted. They did a lot more when civilians were killed 9/11 though.

shreddednips · 18/03/2022 17:39

@MissConductUS

My feeling is the UK are the only one willing / able to put anything forward in support at this time in terms of military support and capability. The US is much more reluctant to commit, whilst others are either more reliant on the US or plain Doves.

Counting the most recent package, the US has provided almost a billion euros in military aid to Ukraine in the last year.

www.euronews.com/next/2022/03/04/ukraine-war-these-countries-are-sending-weapons-and-aid-to-forces-fighting-the-russian-inv

I can't seem to find a recent comparable number for the UK. Is it more?

Agreed, I get the impression that the US is the hawkiest of the lot. But I can't imagine that Russia would agree to a security guarantee with the US so I think that leaves the UK, France and Germany are too dovey.
Yeahthat · 18/03/2022 17:41

@TiddyTidTwo

So it actually is carrying out its function then.

Ukranians are being killed, so let's roll the dice on a nuclear holocaust and the deaths of billions so that we all feel better that we did something. You could equally say the same to Zelensky and tell him to accept whatever terms are offered simply to end the conflict.

Glad we've got more rational people in charge than you appear to be.

TiddyTidTwo · 18/03/2022 17:41

"France and Germany are too dovey"

Got that big pipeline to worry about.

MissConductUS · 18/03/2022 17:42

The article linked above was published before the announcement Wednesday of an additional $800 million in military aid.

Biden announces $800 million in new military aid to Ukraine

How much has the UK kicked in to this point?

TiddyTidTwo · 18/03/2022 17:46

"So it actually is carrying out its function then.

Ukranians are being killed, so let's roll the dice on a nuclear holocaust and the deaths of billions so that we all feel better that we did something. You could equally say the same to Zelensky and tell him to accept whatever terms are offered simply to end the conflict.

Glad we've got more rational people in charge than you appear to be"

Yes let's forget about the civilians and children being murdered because we all live in fear of what he might do. Also Ukraine should surrender so we can all carry on with our privileged lives and pretend that isn't a huge green light for Putin in the future. Let's kick the cab down the road as we live here and not in Ukraine That man thrives on weakness. He doesn't care about sanctions, they don't effect him or his ego. He respects strength.

TiddyTidTwo · 18/03/2022 17:53

Perhaps listen to someone who knows

Alexandra2001 · 18/03/2022 17:53

UK Hawkish??? they couldn't even bring themselves to say Putin is a war criminal at the UN.

Germany has/is sending 1000 anti tank missiles and 500 stingers, UK has sent no anti a/c weapons yet.

TBH trying to drive a wedge between the UK/EU/USA isn't great, everyone has been doing their bit.

If 50% of our industrial energy came from Russia you can bet your last rouble we wouldn't be pushing for Swift bans or energy embargoes, we've not yet seized a single Russian asset here in the UK

I think you ve been swept along by rhetoric.

MarshaBradyo · 18/03/2022 17:56

@Alexandra2001

UK Hawkish??? they couldn't even bring themselves to say Putin is a war criminal at the UN.

Germany has/is sending 1000 anti tank missiles and 500 stingers, UK has sent no anti a/c weapons yet.

TBH trying to drive a wedge between the UK/EU/USA isn't great, everyone has been doing their bit.

If 50% of our industrial energy came from Russia you can bet your last rouble we wouldn't be pushing for Swift bans or energy embargoes, we've not yet seized a single Russian asset here in the UK

I think you ve been swept along by rhetoric.

We’ve sent a fair bit haven’t we? What’s the number

Then again there’s still criticism that it’s too much in terms of sanction early on

Too little from other quarters

MarshaBradyo · 18/03/2022 17:57

He respects strength.

As much as this phrase makes me bristle a bit because it is so Putin centric and ego stroking if it’s about strength are you willing to go further than he is?