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Ukrainian invasion part 13

999 replies

Alexandra2001 · 15/03/2022 07:40

Seems to be required.

OP posts:
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18
Satsumaeater · 15/03/2022 09:15

[quote Idroppedthescrewinthetuna]@notimagain yes, I have seen a few of these reports but not on the main news, which appears to me they have not confirmed it yet? Do you agree?

Is this something that will cause a NATO retaliation?[/quote]
I doubt it, after all, Russian planes buzz our airspace (and other NATO countries' airspace) all the time and nothing happens, they just get escorted away.

eglantine7 · 15/03/2022 09:22

So true 😡

EezyOozy · 15/03/2022 09:23

Thanks

eglantine7 · 15/03/2022 09:24

Sorry I meant @Peregrina about Boris saying what a terrible mistake the West made by allowing Putin to get away with Crimea

ClaudineClare · 15/03/2022 09:30

Ages ago I signed up to Dominic Cumming's substack thing out of curiosity, but wasn't prepared to pay for the privilege of reading his long essays, so didn't bother further. I got this email last week, I though some might be interested in reading his ramblings...although a lot of it seems to be "I was right!" there are some interesting bits.

Twitter is great for tracking news in some fields. In some Twitter communities there are intelligent, insightful, good-faith discussions. It’s appalling for politics and intolerable during a war. Westminster is addicted to it. The addiction adds to the worst dynamics of the old media organisations: constant hysteria, distortion, the collapse of standards for judging ‘facts’, a desperate search for clicks, no explanations of (or even interest in) the real wiring of power deep in the system, international relations and war reduced to stories much more simplistic than the classic fairy tales we read to children

Much more ‘news’ is invented than people realise. It was clearly worse in summer 2019 than 2016. It got worse in 2020. And it’s always worse in a war. Many front page stories are pure inventions. Many senior western journalists now retweet army training scenes from years ago and literally video game footage as if it’s ‘heroic UKR defence’ — some of them do this while also pontificating on ‘disinformation’ and ‘what a heroic job the media is doing’*

As the media thrashes around in one emotional spasm after another, herding towards some conventional wisdom then, after a spasm, herding in a new direction, the narrative whiplash intensifies: closing the borders is racist against China… closing the borders is obviously sensible only Brexit idiots oppose it… masks don’t work … wear masks or you’re evil… ‘the rule of law’ is fundamental, ‘process’ is good… seize the evil’s people stuff now, ‘process’ is an intolerable smokescreen… sanctions won’t hurt normal Russians just the regime … we’ll use sanctions to wreck their economy and anti-war Russians (the most anti-Putin!) must be booted out of everything from chess to opera (even though it’s what Putin wants us to do)… it’s an invasion, he wants millions of Ukrainians in Russia… it’s genocide, he wants to kill all the Ukrainians…

Many of them are now cheerleading for things like a ‘no fly zone’ in total ignorance of the history of nuclear near-misses and how lucky we were to survive the Cold War. They’re emotional and they’ve spent years venting their emotions on Twitter … do something, don’t worry about nuclear war because … err… ‘World War Three has already started’! Imagine what the survivors of nuclear holocaust would make of that meme

Advice: only use Twitter with Lists on something like Tweetdeck. I have lists for e.g science, national security/military/intel, finance, and I have a specific list for politicians and political journalists so I only see them when I want to

The current situation could escalate towards a general war. In summer 1914 we had a much more serious set of people in crucial jobs and the crisis moved much slower than a nuclear crisis does. They were overwhelmed by scale, speed and complexity and made disastrous decisions. Those in charge in the west now, such as Biden and Boris, are an order of magnitude less serious/competent. They’re dealing with something moving potentially hundreds of times faster than summer 1914 (decisions on nuclear weapons potentially have to be made in minutes) with potential casualties on the scale of ~billion. For years I’ve warned that this scale, speed and complexity — systems problems requiring systems thinking — is far beyond the capabilities of our critical institutions which would collapse in a major crisis. Covid proved the point. But of course these critical institutions have not changed

In the UK the situation is worse than in spring 2020 because a lot of very able people came to help then, they’ve almost all gone and the few left are marginalised and/or looking for other jobs. Rather than changing the institutions, in the UK the PM has led a campaign to rewrite the history of covid and the collapse of No10 and the Cabinet Office. This has guaranteed no learning from the collapse. The broken No10/Cabinet Office system — a system that cannot communicate the most simple things, never mind execute something hard — is now responsible for signals concerning nuclear escalation

Even if we avoid general war the effects of recent events on energy, food markets and so on will be profound. Sharp sudden price rises for food have often sparked revolutions, e.g 1848. Huge economic disruption is colliding with a) deluded energy policies in the west for 20 years, b) over a decade of roughly zero/negative real interest rates (unprecedented in centuries), and c) supply chains already reeling from covid and changes in China
dominiccummings.substack.com/p/dan-wang-and-ryan-petersen-on-china?s=w

© 2022 Dominic Cummings

TokyoSushi · 15/03/2022 09:37

Ah here you are, lost you for a little while!

peridito · 15/03/2022 09:38

160 car convoy leaves Mariupol yesterday .Reported on Radio 4 this morning ,apparently it had to pause due to curfew .This is surely excellent news ?

Doesn't seem to be much reporting of it ,though I found this .I'm not active on Twitter so maybe more there ?

www.ndtv.com/world-news/over-160-cars-exit-ukraines-encircled-mariupol-via-evacuation-corridor-2822584

DuncinToffee · 15/03/2022 09:39

Rob Rinder: When people come off the trains from Ukraine.. there are national desks with flags, France,Italy, Germany & even Japan.. we couldn't find a British desk.. & the nearest office is 2hours away or you go to Krakow & fill out a form.. the red tape needs to be cut
twitter.com/haggis_uk/status/1503656726670856196?s=21

MarshaBradyo · 15/03/2022 09:40

Over 44000 have signed up to refugee home scheme

Has anyone here? Out of interest

Do other countries do the financial support

Wrongkindofovercoat · 15/03/2022 09:41

Much more ‘news’ is invented than people realise. It was clearly worse in summer 2019 than 2016. It got worse in 2020. And it’s always worse in a war. Many front page stories are pure inventions. Many senior western journalists now retweet army training scenes from years ago and literally video game footage as if it’s ‘heroic UKR defence’ — some of them do this while also pontificating on ‘disinformation’ and ‘what a heroic job the media is doing’*

Very Kremlin playbook stuff, nothing you see in Western news is real/its made up/from video games. What did DC do when he was in Russia ?

MarshaBradyo · 15/03/2022 09:42

I struggle with DC not sure I can even read his ramblings on here.

He is an opportunist who wanted the chaos he helped create.

Damnloginpopup · 15/03/2022 09:56

@ClaudineClare

Marina Ovsyannikova was very brave to do that. I hope she will be OK.
She won't be.
PestorPeston · 15/03/2022 09:57

Marina Ovsyannikova, set up a new twitter account on 9th March.
She is still alive and kicking.
twitter.com/MarinaOvsy

ClaudineClare · 15/03/2022 10:02

[quote PestorPeston]Marina Ovsyannikova, set up a new twitter account on 9th March.
She is still alive and kicking.
twitter.com/MarinaOvsy[/quote]
That looks like a fake account as it was only created today? I dount they are allowing her to tweet.

ClaudineClare · 15/03/2022 10:03

Oh sorry, it wasn't only created today. I am talking shite.

WeAreTheHeroes · 15/03/2022 10:08

I'm inclined to think Cummings is a Russian bit in human form. Very convenient of him to lay the blame at the feet of the media. The guy's a manipulative arsehole. Can't trust a word he says.

The delegation to Kyiv is really about showing the Russians are not in control.

notimagain · 15/03/2022 10:08

@MarshaBradyo

I struggle with DC not sure I can even read his ramblings on here.

He is an opportunist who wanted the chaos he helped create.

Agree very much , and there’s still the question of his time in Russia..

OTOH a bit like a stopped clock he’s right occasionally - I’d certainly agree with his warnings about Twitter and choosing your sources very carefully. A few journalists seem to have a done bit of speed reading of the works of Von Clausewitz and Sun Tzu and have suddenly becoming experts on the art of war….

WeAreTheHeroes · 15/03/2022 10:08

Bot not bit!

ClaudineClare · 15/03/2022 10:12

I’d certainly agree with his warnings about Twitter and choosing your sources very carefully.

I agree with that part of his ramble too. I keep my cynic's hat on at all times when on social media, including MN!

MarshaBradyo · 15/03/2022 10:13

NotIm yes agree re Twitter and sources

Although he’s a stirrer of greatest degree and has got his fair share of headlines so part of the issue he talks about

But yes I agree with your points

I’m really careful with sources, and platforms even, as it’s worth considering what motivates someone on Twitter and therefore affects their posts because we’re all susceptible to being liked or followed online and that can mean emotive agenda (same happened with Covid).

DuncinToffee · 15/03/2022 10:13

DrBlackbird
Why travel to meet?why not via video link? Seems unusual. And aren’t they all putting themselves and zelensky at risk by being more visible?

It is very unusual!

Lewis Goodall @lewis_goodall explains it a bit further
The fact that these leaders are going to Kyiv (by train) as the city is shelled is striking. Perhaps even more striking is that two former members of the eastern bloc are going speaking for the EU. Embodies the shift which so rankles Putin and is a major backdrop to the war.

elephantmarchingin · 15/03/2022 10:16

Sorry if already mentioned but if the leaders are travelling in and get caught up and killed what implications does this have?

Seems very risky way to 'show support'

Could this be a catalyst for NATO involvement?

PestorPeston · 15/03/2022 10:16

The people the Marina Ovsyannikova account follows seems quite informative.

MarshaBradyo · 15/03/2022 10:17

I will add some Twitter accounts linked here are really informative so it can be a great resource

I don’t use it though so I’m grateful for the editing

PestorPeston · 15/03/2022 10:18

Sorry if already mentioned but if the leaders are travelling in and get caught up and killed what implications does this have?

The cynic in me thought, well we now know the most disposable leaders in the EU.

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