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Ukrainian invasion part 13

999 replies

Alexandra2001 · 15/03/2022 07:40

Seems to be required.

OP posts:
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18
TheOnlyMrsMac · 15/03/2022 13:20

[quote MagicFox]Russia cuts gas pipeline to Europe

twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1503638287558529032?s=21[/quote]
I think Putin is counting on doing more trade with India, even at fire sale prices.

shreddednips · 15/03/2022 13:21

[quote MagicFox]Russia cuts gas pipeline to Europe

twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1503638287558529032?s=21[/quote]
I've been busily trying to get to the bottom of this- it's been reported on reasonably widely, but only the Express is (so far) framing it as a retaliation by Putin. From what I can see, the flow has been cut off at least once before in the previous month. Will be interesting to see if this is indeed a deliberate move 😬

DuncinToffee · 15/03/2022 13:24

More sanctions

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60752241
The UK has announced 370 more sanctions, with Russia's former president one of those targeted, in its latest response to the war in Ukraine.
Dmitry Medvedev and President Vladimir Putin's spokesman are among those to be hit with asset freezes and travel bans.
Earlier, the UK hit Russia with trade restrictions, including an additional 35% tariff on vodka.
The move comes after the passage of new legislation to speed up and harden UK sanctions.

RedToothBrush · 15/03/2022 13:28

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/15/china-has-already-decided-to-send-economic-aid-to-russia-in-ukraine-conflict-us-officials-fear?CMP=twt_gu&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium#Echobox=1647349652
China has already decided to send economic aid to Russia in Ukraine conflict, US officials fear

Jake Sullivan’s Rome meeting with Chinese counterpart left US officials pessimistic about steering Beijing away from backing Moscow

However, the Americans walked away from the Rome meeting pessimistic that the Chinese government would change its minds about backing Moscow.

“The key here is first to get China to recalculate and re-evaluate their position. We see no sign of that re-evaluation,” said another US official familiar with the discussions. “They’ve already decided that they’re going to provide economic and financial support, and they underscored that today. The question really is whether they will go further.”

Top of the Russian military shopping list in China are armed drones and various forms of ammunition, but any military transfers would not be straightforward.

“Both sides understand that they don’t share common systems, and so that makes it problematic,” the official said. CNN reported that the Russian military is also asking for ration packs, underlining its severe logistical problems in a more prolonged and tougher conflict than it anticipated.

Russia needs economic and financial aid most urgently, in the face of devastating sanctions imposed by the US and its allies since the 24 February invasion. The country is danger of default on its debt payments, with two interest payments due on Wednesday, though it will have a 30-day grace period.

Moscow is unable to access nearly all of its $640bn in gold and foreign exchange reserves, but still holds part of those reserves in yuan, so Beijing will be able to step in to provide immediate assistance.

There is pessimism in Washington about the possibility of steering China away from throwing in its lot with Russia, largely because it sees the partnership as being driven from the top.

“It really is a project of Xi Jinping. He is totally, fundamentally behind this closer partnership with Russia,” the US official said. There is more scepticism lower down the ranks, but Xi and Putin have bonded over their shared view of the US as being heavy- and high-handed, and determined to end the period of US global dominance.

If China does back Russia in its showdown with the west, the Biden administration will shift its focus to persuading allies, in Europe particularly, to rethink their relationships with Beijing. Sullivan is due in Paris on Tuesday for discussions with the French government.

“The United States believes that the key here is a careful process of dialogue and discussion with Europe about what China is revealing about its global policies and priorities,” the US official said. “Our goal basically is to carefully engage China, letting the Europeans know [what we are doing] all along, but if it becomes clear that [China] is moving in another direction, so be it.”

MissConductUS · 15/03/2022 13:31

[quote PestorPeston]Marina Ovsyannikova, set up a new twitter account on 9th March.
She is still alive and kicking.
twitter.com/MarinaOvsy[/quote]
"She" just posted denouncing herself. It's an obvious fake.

TheOnlyMrsMac · 15/03/2022 13:33

www.reuters.com/business/energy/russias-yamal-europe-gas-pipeline-halts-westbound-flows-data-2022-03-15/

Not for the first time and perhaps it is only temporary - or a warning from Putin about what he can do.

TheOnlyMrsMac · 15/03/2022 13:36

[quote MagicFox]Russia cuts gas pipeline to Europe

twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1503638287558529032?s=21[/quote]
Counting on aid from China too, as well as trade with India?

ScrollingLeaves · 15/03/2022 13:37

Is Marina Ovsy short for Marina Ovsyannikova?

Ijsbear · 15/03/2022 13:41

That's heart sinking in so many ways RedToothBrush, short and long term.

DuncinToffee · 15/03/2022 13:45

@RedToothBrush

Tim White *@TWMCLtd* #Kyiv mayor Vitaliy Klichko (Klitschko) imposes another curfew on #Ukraine's capital. It will kick in at 8pm this evening and last 35 hours.

It's the first midweek 24+ hour total curfew for the city.

Speculation Ukranian intelligence is expecting a full Russian attack; I doubt that.

When are the VIPs arriving again?

They departed Poland at 9am local time, the train journey takes at least 7 hours so they should be ok. Might have to rush to get out before 8pm.
RedToothBrush · 15/03/2022 13:46

@Ijsbear

That's heart sinking in so many ways RedToothBrush, short and long term.
Isn't it?

Its BAD. The geopolitics of it are huge.

shreddednips · 15/03/2022 13:52

@RedToothBrush

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/15/china-has-already-decided-to-send-economic-aid-to-russia-in-ukraine-conflict-us-officials-fear?CMP=twt_gu&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium#Echobox=1647349652 China has already decided to send economic aid to Russia in Ukraine conflict, US officials fear

Jake Sullivan’s Rome meeting with Chinese counterpart left US officials pessimistic about steering Beijing away from backing Moscow

However, the Americans walked away from the Rome meeting pessimistic that the Chinese government would change its minds about backing Moscow.

“The key here is first to get China to recalculate and re-evaluate their position. We see no sign of that re-evaluation,” said another US official familiar with the discussions. “They’ve already decided that they’re going to provide economic and financial support, and they underscored that today. The question really is whether they will go further.”

Top of the Russian military shopping list in China are armed drones and various forms of ammunition, but any military transfers would not be straightforward.

“Both sides understand that they don’t share common systems, and so that makes it problematic,” the official said. CNN reported that the Russian military is also asking for ration packs, underlining its severe logistical problems in a more prolonged and tougher conflict than it anticipated.

Russia needs economic and financial aid most urgently, in the face of devastating sanctions imposed by the US and its allies since the 24 February invasion. The country is danger of default on its debt payments, with two interest payments due on Wednesday, though it will have a 30-day grace period.

Moscow is unable to access nearly all of its $640bn in gold and foreign exchange reserves, but still holds part of those reserves in yuan, so Beijing will be able to step in to provide immediate assistance.

There is pessimism in Washington about the possibility of steering China away from throwing in its lot with Russia, largely because it sees the partnership as being driven from the top.

“It really is a project of Xi Jinping. He is totally, fundamentally behind this closer partnership with Russia,” the US official said. There is more scepticism lower down the ranks, but Xi and Putin have bonded over their shared view of the US as being heavy- and high-handed, and determined to end the period of US global dominance.

If China does back Russia in its showdown with the west, the Biden administration will shift its focus to persuading allies, in Europe particularly, to rethink their relationships with Beijing. Sullivan is due in Paris on Tuesday for discussions with the French government.

“The United States believes that the key here is a careful process of dialogue and discussion with Europe about what China is revealing about its global policies and priorities,” the US official said. “Our goal basically is to carefully engage China, letting the Europeans know [what we are doing] all along, but if it becomes clear that [China] is moving in another direction, so be it.”

I read this earlier, very concerning Sad I'm still not sure I understand China's rationale on this one though, unless it thinks America won't follow through on its threats (or at least maintain it long term). It just seems so out of character. Ideologically, I understand that Xi is behind Russia, but it seems odd to act so clearly against his own interests. Although, is there quite a lot to be gained for China in having Russia hugely indebted to it, especially if Xi thinks it can withstand any sanctions America throws China's way?
Ijsbear · 15/03/2022 13:53

tbh I though that the Ukraine would get steam rollered from the start. Then there seemed to be faint hope; but now?

Putin is playing Xi Jinping. He got Trump into office, that bombastic dangerous clown who threw his weight around; America's thoroughly pissed off Asia further than the fundamental clash of cultures, and Putin's been working all this time to bond with Mr Xi.

Fucking hell.

RedToothBrush · 15/03/2022 13:53

www.rferl.org/a/kazakhstan-bloggers-prison-sentences/31754221.html
Two Noted Russia Critics In Kazakhstan Handed Lengthy Prison Terms

The bloggers have criticized Russia's policies, including Moscow's annexation of Ukraine's Crimea and Moscow’s support of pro-Russia separatists in Ukraine's east, as well as Russia's ongoing invasion of Ukraine.

TheABC · 15/03/2022 13:55

Logging back in after a few days off.

The news from China is not good. I never expected unequivocal condemnation from them - they are a dictatorship too and have to live with Russia as neighbours - but I did expect them to stay hands off in the interest of exploring everyone to the max.

If they are supporting Russia, they've made the bet that Russia's resources/influence is worth more than ours (to them). Or they want to stick too fingers up at the US.

In contrast, I understand India/Africa's support of Russia as they are dependent on military arms or wheat from that quarter. China does not.

Neither prospect is a comfortable one.

Ijsbear · 15/03/2022 13:58

It just seems so out of character.

I don't think it is at all. China's system of culture and govt is very different from the West. The hope was that China's economic ties with the West would be enough to hold it back but apparently not.

In the long term China was always going to become more powerful because they play the long game and don't have the short termism of 4-year democracies, plus a history of autocracy and massive land size, population and resources.

The Century of Humiliation stings deeply. Great Britain started that off if I understand the history correctly.

"Never underestimate wounded pride". Or nationalism.

shreddednips · 15/03/2022 14:00

@TheABC

Logging back in after a few days off.

The news from China is not good. I never expected unequivocal condemnation from them - they are a dictatorship too and have to live with Russia as neighbours - but I did expect them to stay hands off in the interest of exploring everyone to the max.

If they are supporting Russia, they've made the bet that Russia's resources/influence is worth more than ours (to them). Or they want to stick too fingers up at the US.

In contrast, I understand India/Africa's support of Russia as they are dependent on military arms or wheat from that quarter. China does not.

Neither prospect is a comfortable one.

So did I. I figured that China would side with Russia in terms of backing up its propaganda (because otherwise it means having to admit to the public that Xi's bromance with Putin was a massive miscalculation), but that it would stop short of any significant support while keeping a beady eye on developments to inform long-term aims. I just can't make sense of it!
HappyWinter · 15/03/2022 14:00

I hoped China would at least stay neutral, it's worrying that they are supporting Russia, I thought they would have more to lose than to gain. Does this mean a possibility of sanctions against China?

shreddednips · 15/03/2022 14:01

@HappyWinter

I hoped China would at least stay neutral, it's worrying that they are supporting Russia, I thought they would have more to lose than to gain. Does this mean a possibility of sanctions against China?
From America at least I would have thought, I can't see how they can back down after being so clear that there would be consequences. But has China actually acted yet?
BreadInCaptivity · 15/03/2022 14:04

But has China actually acted yet?

I think that's unclear.

I also think it's important to consider that in the realms of international diplomacy, what nations say they are going to do and what they actually do can be quite different.

Even when they do as they say, it can be surprising they they interpret their own "wording" and the loopholes that can be utilised.

marykitty · 15/03/2022 14:04

especially if Xi thinks it can withstand any sanctions America throws China's way?

Oh well, the problem here is not if china can withstand but if we (the West, especially europe) can withstand them.

Sorry to jump in, I am following since thread 1 but felt i did not have enough background to contribute on the topic.

But due to my job experience i can say there is no way us (the West) can afford any troubled economic relationship with china. We depend completely on them. China knows that.
China shutting down manufacturing sites during first covid wave is still causing issues 2 years later for sourcing of raw materials, plastic films etc.
No way we can sanction China, out of the table.

MagicFox · 15/03/2022 14:09

Wonder if there's any truth in this: twitter.com/alexandruc4/status/1503729544783708163?s=21

CaveMum · 15/03/2022 14:23

Twitter 20 mins ago showing Marina Ovsyannikova in court with human rights lawyer Anton Gashinsky. Thank goodness she's been seen publicly.

twitter.com/KevinRothrock/status/1503732751136083975?s=20&t=TwI-G7hwmI-zwH8I2cCzaQ

shreddednips · 15/03/2022 14:26

[quote CaveMum]Twitter 20 mins ago showing Marina Ovsyannikova in court with human rights lawyer Anton Gashinsky. Thank goodness she's been seen publicly.

twitter.com/KevinRothrock/status/1503732751136083975?s=20&t=TwI-G7hwmI-zwH8I2cCzaQ[/quote]
Thank goodness! I was also relieved to see that, according to the BBC, she has been charged with 'organising an unauthorised public event' which carries a fine or 10 days in prison if convicted. Which seems rather surprising, but very good if true!

DuncinToffee · 15/03/2022 14:26

Max Seddon @maxseddon

After going dark for nearly 24 hours, Marina Ovsyannikova has surfaced in court, where she's facing a misdemeanor charge for her protest on Channel One.

Crucially, it's not under the new "fake news" law – so the most she can get is 10 days in jail.