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Ukraine Invasion Part 12

999 replies

MagicFox · 11/03/2022 21:25

I see the other thread is filling up so starting the twelfth...

OP posts:
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14
RedToothBrush · 14/03/2022 14:01

James Waterhouse @JamWaterhouse
Officials in Mariupol say 50 private vehicles have made it out of the city in a first successful evacuation along the humanitarian corridor.

No word yet on whether a convoy of supplies made it in.

BBC

Ijsbear · 14/03/2022 14:09

Does anyone have news on how China is reacting?

Notonthestairs · 14/03/2022 14:13

"A technical pause has been taken in the negotiations until tomorrow. For additional work in the working subgroups and clarification of individual definitions. Negotiations continue..."

Tweet from Ukrainian negotiator.

twitter.com/podolyak_m/status/1503369315978027015?s=21

EsmaCannonball · 14/03/2022 14:21

I mentioned earlier that the mayor of Melitopol has allegedly been taken to Luhansk where he is being investigated for terrorism. Apparently Kremlin mouthpieces on Russian state television have been discussing the possibility of public hangings in Ukraine. The constitutions of Luhansk and Donetsk allow for the death penalty. It feels insane that democratically elected politicians could be facing public executions in 21st century Europe.

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2022 14:22

@Ijsbear

Does anyone have news on how China is reacting?
Nothing further today other than the official denial of the Russian request. Followed by a denial from Russia too.

It looks like the meeting is just about to go ahead in Italy between Jake Sullivan and Yang Jiechi or is already in progress but certainly has not concluded from what I can tell.

WeAreTheHeroes · 14/03/2022 14:24

Even if this is a scare tactic and there's no intention to follow through with it, it's inhuman.

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2022 14:33

@WeAreTheHeroes

Even if this is a scare tactic and there's no intention to follow through with it, it's inhuman.
Of course they intend to make examples of protesters and officials who do not accept Russian control.

Thats the only way they can try and control the population - through fear.

Its what Totalitarians do.

Putin isn't fluffy.

As for the idea of the death penalty. Its not as if that matters if you can just make people disappear. Russia doesn't have the death penalty. It does have a national problem with the safety on windows in high buildings though and it seems to be cultural because this also happens to Russians whilst abroad too.

elephantmarchingin · 14/03/2022 14:36

@EsmaCannonball

I mentioned earlier that the mayor of Melitopol has allegedly been taken to Luhansk where he is being investigated for terrorism. Apparently Kremlin mouthpieces on Russian state television have been discussing the possibility of public hangings in Ukraine. The constitutions of Luhansk and Donetsk allow for the death penalty. It feels insane that democratically elected politicians could be facing public executions in 21st century Europe.
Hmmm you seem to keep coming across these things yet I can't see them anywhere reported?
ScrollingLeaves · 14/03/2022 14:40

“EsmaCannonball

I mentioned earlier that the mayor of Melitopol has allegedly been taken to Luhansk where he is being investigated for terrorism. Apparently Kremlin mouthpieces on Russian state television have been discussing the possibility of public hangings in Ukraine. The constitutions of Luhansk and Donetsk allow for the death penalty. It feels insane that democratically elected politicians could be facing public executions in 21st century Europe”

I have just been reading that Luhansk and Donetsk have a Leninist constitution. This constitution allows hanging, as you mentioned.

According to an Aljazeera article it is like North Korea in that region.

Tuba437 · 14/03/2022 14:40

To me this sounds like progress. More of a confirming of words etc. Praying for a breakthrough soon.

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2022 14:41

www.cityam.com/russian-aviation-on-brink-as-bermuda-revokes-745-plane-licenses-half-of-countrys-fleet/
Russian aviation on brink as Bermuda revokes 745 plane licenses, half of country’s fleet

In a major blow for Russian aviation Bermuda is preparing to revoke the licenses of 745 planes, a move which could ground half the country’s entire fleet.

In a statement Bermuda’s civil aviation authority said that it could no longer regulate Russian planes following the imposition of international sanctions on the country’s aviation sector. The suspension of accreditation for Russian planes in Bermuda will impact the majority of aircraft flying for Russian airlines which are registered in the territory for tax purposes.

“International sanctions on the aviation sector have had a significant impact on the ability to sustain safety oversight on Russian operated aircraft on the Bermuda Aircraft Registry,” Bermuda’s civil aviation authority said in a statement.

“The airworthiness system has been restricted to the point that the Bermuda Civil Aviation Authority (BCAA) is unable to confidently approve these aircraft as being airworthy,” that statement added.

mpsw · 14/03/2022 14:44

[quote YorkshireLondonMiss]@mpsw “ Yes, an accidental overshoot is a very worrying possibility.”

I spoke to dh’s dad about this because I was worried too (he’s ex military so naturally is taking a great interest and following the conflict closely) he said a while back that a hotline has been installed between the US (for NATO) and Russia with the idea that they can immediately notify them if a rogue missile is a mistake to reduce the chance of escalation due to miscalculation. Apparently this is a common thing to do in most wars as tech does sometimes go wrong.[/quote]
Yes, that was established after the Cuban Missile Crisis and is a valuable thing.

How well it will work in any particular set of circumstances is always a bit of an open question.

Natsku · 14/03/2022 14:49

@EsmaCannonball

I mentioned earlier that the mayor of Melitopol has allegedly been taken to Luhansk where he is being investigated for terrorism. Apparently Kremlin mouthpieces on Russian state television have been discussing the possibility of public hangings in Ukraine. The constitutions of Luhansk and Donetsk allow for the death penalty. It feels insane that democratically elected politicians could be facing public executions in 21st century Europe.
That is such a disturbing thought, that this could happen. Sometimes it feels like we've gone back in time. Hope its just threats and posturing, to put pressure on Ukraine to compromise.
RedToothBrush · 14/03/2022 14:57

Hmmm you seem to keep coming across these things yet I can't see them anywhere reported?

Quick search: mayor of Melitopol has allegedly been taken to Luhansk where he is being investigated for terrorism
Can find being reported by CNN and The Telegraph

Quick search: Russian state television have been discussing the possibility of public hangings in Ukraine
Can find being reported by the Daily Beast.

For at least a week the Daily Beast has been following Russian State television and is reporting whats going on - and then this is being reported several days later by other news agencies/newspapers.

Its stuff I've had come up on my feed so was aware of it. But I've just double checked sources for your benefit.

I am finding it harder to find Ukraine stories over the last couple of days as there is less coming out of Ukraine and there's more twitter noise about other stuff. But it is there. Often you need to follow a trail of picking up a story then searching for reputable source (see my posts above about Mariupol.) TBH this is literally what someone bod at a newspaper is paid to do to find stories these days rather than have a reporter on the ground...

Onceuponatimeinalandfaraway · 14/03/2022 15:13

So random Russians are complaining about getting text messages and emails from strangers/Ukrainians…..anonymous campaign and tools to enable anyone in the world to text or email a Russian citizen is clearly working well then. Sadly I’d say if the Russians are jumping straight to thinking it’s Ukrainians telling lies about the state of the war then it’s time I give up thinking that maybe most Russians just don’t know what’s going on and wouldn’t really be supporting him if they did.

PerkingFaintly · 14/03/2022 15:17

Using refugees as a weapon of war.

Russians bombed Syria to bits, creating refugees. Last year, via Lukashenko, Syrian & Middle Eastern refugees were lured into Belarus. Belarus then pointed the Syrian & ME refugees at the EU ie the Polish border.

At the same time, Belarus allegedly produced anti-immigration videos (for Polish & other EU consumption?) demonising these refugees.

Poland refused to take most of these Syrian & ME refugees.

Now Belarus is ordering at gunpoint that the Syrian & ME refugees to go to Poland and Ukraine.

If Poland again fails to take these refugees, Putin will get to use the refugees HE CREATED as a propaganda win, to say to the Middle East and elsewhere, "Look, these racists don't care about you."

It really is terribly clever. As long as you're a psychopath.

Fears grow of new crisis as refugees in Belarus driven into Ukraine
www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/mar/14/fears-grow-of-new-crisis-as-refugees-in-belarus-driven-into-ukraine
Belarusians were provoking the refugees on the border already in autumn, recording hateful videos to spread anti-migration propaganda in Poland and in Europe. Those were videos that put in very bad light all the migrants and representatives of different minorities on the Belarusian side. What if they were keeping them in Bruzgi since November, because they knew that they could use them?”

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 14/03/2022 15:18

RTB is outlining some of the advice that reputable agencies such as First Draft would give for finding sources and stories in areas of conflict when other sources aren't available. Those provide leads and stories to follow-up.

firstdraftnews.org/training/

eglantine7 · 14/03/2022 15:51

@PerkingFaintly wow 🤯

AgnesWestern · 14/03/2022 16:14

Ukraine negotiator says talks with Russia will continue on Tuesday
Talks between Ukraine and Russia have paused and will continue on Tuesday, one of Ukraine’s negotiators said on Twitter.

“A technical pause has been taken in the negotiations until tomorrow. For additional work in the working subgroups and clarification of individual definitions. Negotiations continue,” Mykhailo Podolyak said.

AgnesWestern · 14/03/2022 16:15

The fact that neither Ukraine or Russia has commented on paused peace talks is being taken by some as an encouraging sign that progess maybe being made ...

Ukraine-Russia talks paused & to go on tomorrow ... TT

AgnesWestern · 14/03/2022 16:19

Not sure how helpful that info is but I’m trying to focus on the positives.

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2022 16:24

[quote EmbarrassingHadrosaurus]RTB is outlining some of the advice that reputable agencies such as First Draft would give for finding sources and stories in areas of conflict when other sources aren't available. Those provide leads and stories to follow-up.

firstdraftnews.org/training/[/quote]
I tend to try and cross reference where possible. Or where I know there is a history of sourcing being reputable. A lot of it comes down to knowing how to use twitter to its best and building up a lot of reliable blue ticks (or known professionals).

I do try to back source something or source from different points of view if I can or if I think its not necessarily verifible.

So Ukraine sources might say one thing, Russians another. So I'd take both, then see if there's anything from verified sources that matches either or perhaps fills in a gap between the two. Or I will look for a mismatch between sources (Eg over KIA numbers). I'd then try and find or think of explanations to account for the difference or historical reliability. The other thing to do is look for absence of evidence you would expect too.

Its not an exact science, but if you are cross referencing, know the difference between reputable and verifiable sources and rumours / twitter noise it can be helpful. And it is literally what newspapers will do and will then try and verify by the sources they do have.

Its always worth tracking things in terms of rumour v reality (or I might put it rumour to reality), because you know certain things will eventually come to the surface that can be verified because material reality means you can't hide it completely.

One of these has definitely been the level of Russian Equipment and Manpower. That has been slowly crystalising and creeping up the news agenda from rumours / crowd sourcing up to story about Russia asking for military help from China. It has to have some substance driving this, and you also see signs coming from the Russia leadership themselves which suggest its definitely a problem that they need to solve in someway. So you've got a cross reference of crowdsourcing, apparent intel rumoured, politics from the West, things like an ongoing count on missiles by ukrainian sources, stuff like Russian Generals with a habit of dying, historical and geographical knowledge and also political developments like requests from Putin for foreign fighters for free (together with their equipment). By themselves they often mean nothing. Put together they create a picture. It doesn't tell the whole story, but you get a certain sense of things, and what to look for next.

I would suggest keeping an eye on what happens with the Belarussians, the Chechans and whether we start seeing reports of Syrians and Africans popping up (I'm not expecting the africans btw). I've also seen a rumour today of Russian ships coming into Berdiansk today. I can't verify it. But I also know that the Mariupol humanitarian exit is via Berdiansk... So it makes sense for a pause there. I'd also be looking for developments in the area (perhaps a consolidation of power or a breakout either to the north or to break Mariupol finally) as an incoming story over the next few days.

Again its about depth of what you know is going on elsewhere and is verified.

Its a jigsaw puzzle. One where you can put a piece or two in the wrong place by mistake at times, but you can eventually start to see what the picture is.

We will probably see the same with economics too. Because of the laws of material reality.

How that influences and plays out in terms of what Russia actually do about them is another matter...

I have to say that I wouldn't be surprised by Perking's suggestion over Belarus. There were a lot of refugees (and economic migrants who were also encouraged to go to Belarus on a lie) who were almost 'trapped' - they couldn't go back and they couldn't go forward cos they had no money. There was talk of human trafficking, but I don't think what actually happened to them was ever followed through by journalists to a satisfactory conclusion to rule out the possibility. It was 'oh look fights on the polish border' etc etc, but it went down the agenda and disappeared. There's certainly nothing to suggest they flew home or were deported.

And race / origin of refugees has already become a 'wedge issue' to alienate and divide and conquer. Its part of a well established pattern.

I'd lean towards it being something that has been planned or provides an opportunity to exploit for Russian/Belarus benefit. I expect that one to head up the agenda too...

DuncinToffee · 14/03/2022 16:29

Hints of progress at talks but Ukrainians won't be getting excited

James Waterhouse
Kyiv correspondent, BBC News

When it’s come to peace talks in this war, expectations haven’t exactly been lofty. In fact, they’ve been near rock-bottom.

There’s been no movement on Russia’s demand that Ukraine effectively surrenders its weapons and becomes neutral, and Ukraine’s that Russia agrees to a ceasefire and pulls back its troops.

The exact opposite has, of course, happened.

The highest-level meeting so far has been with both countries’ foreign ministers last Thursday in Turkey, where there was no breakthrough to put it mildly.

There’ve also been four rounds of negotiations between respective representatives, with the latest being today.

After a slow start, the language has turned more positive. We’ve seen temporary ceasefires finally agreed and used, and today hints of progress.

Kyiv claims Moscow has “stopped using ultimatums”, and there could “be results in the coming days”.

Not that many Ukrainians will be getting excited. 19 days of this brutal war has done nothing for optimism.

eglantine7 · 14/03/2022 16:30

I've noticed a lot of social media posts saying why should we support these people they are racists. Crazy games being played with humanity. Bloody dreadful! Wish more females were in charge. I despair.

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2022 16:32

The Kyiv Independent @KyivIndependent
According to Deputy Prime Minister Iryna Vereshchuk, about 600-700 people have been evacuated on March 14 from the besieged city. Some 300,000 residents remain in Mariupol.

“This is not enough,” Vereshchuk said, adding that Russia has blocked Ukrainian trucks and buses from evacuating more people.

Not such great news...