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Ukraine invasion discussion thread part 11

999 replies

ScatteredMama82 · 09/03/2022 15:43

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4499310-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-10?pg=40

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littledrummergirl · 09/03/2022 20:44

Arsehole, bastard, uncaring piece of shit!!! Nadim and the fucking conservatives are not representative of the UK population, at least in my home and circle.

They are full of shit and lower than anyone would believe the bar could be set.

Bring the refugees in.
Cunts!

HeadPain · 09/03/2022 20:44

Via msn

"Russia has directly warned both Finland and Sweden against joining Nato, threatening military action.

Ukraine’s ambitions to join the Western alliance have been a huge touchpoint in Russia’s invasion.

“Finland and Sweden should not base their security on damaging the security of other countries and their accession to Nato can have detrimental consequences and face some military and political consequences,” foreign affairs spokesperson Maria Zakharova said during a news briefing.

The Russian Foreign Ministry added on Twitter: “We regard the Finnish Government’s commitment to a military non-alignment policy as an important factor in ensuring security and stability in northern Europe.

“Finland’s accession to Nato would have serious military and political repercussions.”

Keir Giles, a senior consulting fellow at London-based think-tank Chatham House, said President Putin’s aim of “reversing history and going back to Russia’s status as it was over 100 years ago also directly affects other neighbours”.

“This means Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Finland.”

Finland, like Ukraine, is not part of Nato. It is, however, part of the EU.

The EU has a mutual defence clause for any member nation that is “victim of armed aggression on its territory”.

This means if Russia were to invade Finland, it could find itself at war with all 27 EU member states, which could then engage Russian forces directly.

Why is Finland not in Nato?
Of the 27 EU members, Finland is one of just six that is not also a member of Nato.

The other five are Austria, Cyprus, Ireland, Malta and Sweden.

Finland does have relations with Nato, but up until now has believed it does not need Nato membership to remain secure.

The Russian-Finnish Winter War that took place from 1939 to 1940 created a strong belief of military prowess for Finland. Finland also makes adolescent males report for a short and intense period of military training, meaning it has a large and capable citizen military reserve.

However, Russia’s actions may be driving Finland towards Nato membership.

Finnish President Sauli Niinisto has stressed: “Finland’s room to manoeuvre and freedom of choice also includes the possibility of military alignment and of applying for Nato membership, should we ourselves so decide.”

While the country’s Prime Minister, Alexander Stubb, has said “at this rate, we have no other option but to join”.

A recent public poll has suggested the majority of the population also now supports Nato membership. "

Roses1221 · 09/03/2022 20:44

I cannot believe we are watching the Ukrainian people bury their community in mass graves and we can only stand by and let it happen. I know we are imposing sanctions, supporting in other ways etc. but it just feels so totally wrong that we can’t step in and stop these atrocities because of the power held my one man.

littledrummergirl · 09/03/2022 20:44

Sorry, watching question time!

Roussette · 09/03/2022 20:46

littledrummergirl Me too!

The ex PM of Denmark just wiped the floor with Zahawi. Twice.

HeadPain · 09/03/2022 20:47

@Sittinginthesand

Newhome - I felt awful but the same thought popped into my head earlier. If Ukraine hadn’t resisted and we hadn’t imposed sanctions this would be old news by now. I still think we (ie Nato) are doing the right thing - once the Ukrainians showed such courage we had little choice. But I hope it’s worth it, only History will tell us that.
I don't understand this comment. Are you saying Ukraine shouldn't have resisted the invasion? And we shouldn't have imposed sanctions?
oakleaffy · 09/03/2022 20:48

Why the heck isn't Putin been charged with War Crimes against Humanity?
Is it because he is ''Untouchable'' or unreachable?

HappyWinter · 09/03/2022 20:49

@AuldAlliance @borntobequiet I thought so before, but I thought I'd been watching too much of The Americans (US spy drama), now it's becoming clear how much interference there has been. Apparently now the level of covid misinformation and climate change denial online has dropped off just as Ukrainian invasion misinformation has ramped up, making it more likely that it is coming from Russian bots. It's all about causing division and pushing agendas.

oakleaffy · 09/03/2022 20:49

Edit :Why hasn't Putin, not 'Isn't'

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 09/03/2022 20:50

@Lonelycrab

Sad pmk.

Relieved slightly in the reports that Chernobyl isn’t in immediate danger, one scarce bit of good news.

But absolutely horrendous the news about the maternity hospitalSad

One of the most persistent and saddest stories of family members from WWII was the loss of a maternity hospital with newborns in Liverpool.

I won't post the numbers my relatives claimed because they can't be validated but they're substantially greater than the ones estimated here.

Local history researcher Anthony Hogan said it is an event which is often overlooked when remembering the blitz in Liverpool.

"So many babies and their mothers died that night. It reduced me to tears when I first compiled the list of victims," he said.

Mr Hogan runs a website which names 78 people known to have been killed that night. But he believes there were a lot more.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-13210575

HarlanPepper · 09/03/2022 20:51

@newhomenewlife47 We are already in WWIII. Increasingly over the last few days I've been thinking about the beginnings of WWII - surely no-one then had the slightest idea what was unfurling.

In my opinion (although I know the square root of fuck-all, just to be clear, I am not claiming specialist knowledge) it is only a matter of time before neighbouring NATO countries are drawn into this in some way, and then things will start to look very different.

BeckyWithTheGoodHair010101 · 09/03/2022 20:51

@Roussette

littledrummergirl Me too!

The ex PM of Denmark just wiped the floor with Zahawi. Twice.

She is totally bad ass. What a hero!
Shuuu · 09/03/2022 20:52

This is totally horrific! Who knows what the answer is here. Bombing a child end hospital whilst Putin is having meeting with commissioner of children rights. No amount of sanctions are stopping him, no amount of war crimes he’s racking up are stopping him.

I wonder if NATO could announce they are sending military into Ukraine to collect civilians at a certain day/time and see whether Putin respects this. I understand of course the implications if he does not respect/allow this and of course the sacrifice we will endure. However I do feel something needs to be done now. But I don’t know what.

Apparently the Ruble has collapsed, can anybody clarify what this means?

cakeorwine · 09/03/2022 20:53

Interesting article on the effects of sanctions on Russian people

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/09/history-can-be-funny-muscovites-get-used-to-life-without-dior-and-mcdonalds

BeyondPurpleTulips · 09/03/2022 20:53

@oakleaffy

Why the heck isn't Putin been charged with War Crimes against Humanity? Is it because he is ''Untouchable'' or unreachable?
Afaik - unreachable. To be charged, he'd have to be arrested, to be arrested he'd have to leave Russia. How that bode's for the future (will he never leave there again?!), I don't know
AgnesWestern · 09/03/2022 20:53

So no one thinks that peace talks will work? Even with China involved?

I was hoping this would turn more into a Cold War situation, rather than ww3 Sad

Feeling really sad tonight. What would have I brought my child into? He’s starting school next year. If only I had a time machine, I’m not sure I would have had him, I can’t bear it.

Sittinginthesand · 09/03/2022 20:53

Rousette, what I actually said was ‘ If Ukraine hadn’t resisted and we hadn’t imposed sanctions this would be old news by now. I still think we (ie Nato) are doing the right thing - once the Ukrainians showed such courage we had little choice. ’ which I don’t think implies that I think they should just have ‘rolled over’. But there are many ‘pivot’ points in history and they aren’t always apparent at the time (not just the obvious invasion), we are allowed to discuss these. And we are allowed to discuss ‘why this war?’ it doesn’t imply a judgment but it is an important question. Why now and not when Russia invaded Crimes? Why not all the other conflicts around the world? Why do we always ignore the DRC? I don’t think we have much choice but to impose sanctions- but we have to consider the ethics, the effects on people at home and abroad. We are entering a huge economic and fuel crisis- worse than covid and we are choosing to do so, we are choosing the difficult path. Again, not a judgment but we need to this consciously, not as if it’s inevitable.

Papertyger · 09/03/2022 20:55

the Putin spokes person said Norway must remain neutral to ensure peace and stability?

But, there is no peace and stability, Putin has absolutely smashed it.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 09/03/2022 20:55

Why do so many posters go straight to WWIII and the nuclear option ?

Is it anxiety ? I can understand that or is it they have a fast track to the Kremlin and are aware that Putin is ready to skip various rungs of the escalation ladder and go straight to the nuclear option if anyone, anywhere does anything he doesn't like ? I can't help feeling he would be taking an assisted short walk off a long pier if he really was at that level of twitchy ?

Roussette · 09/03/2022 20:56

Sitting sorry if I misread your post. I didn't mean to.

Agnes just take joy from your child because I personally honestly don't think life will change for him. Try not to dwell on it and you musn't think you shouldn't have had him. Flowers

notimagain · 09/03/2022 20:57

@oakleaffy

Why the heck isn't Putin been charged with War Crimes against Humanity? Is it because he is ''Untouchable'' or unreachable?
Charging Putin with anything ATM would make zero difference to the situation in Ukraine, so what’s the point?

We all know what sort of individual he is.

Long term, if the west could physically get hold of him, then yes, charge away.

TheSillyMastiff · 09/03/2022 20:57

As a war widow, I can definitely see why some are saying they don't want to risk their lives and children. It's a fair point and nobody should feel ashamed of thinking or saying that.

It's one thing to sit in a armchair and declare war, it's another thing to bury your husband/child/brother because of it.

I believe their feelings are valid, and should be respected.

Leafblowing · 09/03/2022 20:58

No war crime trial for Tony Blair or George Bush either.

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 20:58

Michael Weiss @michaeldweiss
I spoke this afternoon to a senior European intelligence official. The picture shared about what's happening in Ukraine differs from U.S. government assessments, especially on Russian losses. So let me present (without commentary) what this source said:

"From our estimate, the KIA figure on the Russian side was anywhere from 7,000 to 9,000 a few days ago."

"Bad morale, lack of manpower" is a huge issue on the Russian side. "They're calling in reservists, offering money and contracts to people to go fight and, as you've seen, relying on conscripts."

"It's not a popular war in the Russian military from what we've seen. People are terrorized, threatened with lawsuits if they decline to fight."

Anti-armor missiles are "the superstars right now."

Ukraine still has "decent air defenses, especially short- to mid- range."

One reason why Russian fixed-wing aircraft are being shot down is that "cloudy weather is forcing them to fly at lower altitudes."

"Russia doesn't have the power to keep going like this for very long. Time isn't on their side, nor do they have a recipe for winning. They can't win hearts and minds, that's for sure."

"As long as the Western resupply channels remain open and Ukraine still fields a decent number of fighters, then they're OK."

So Ukraine (as of yesterday) saying 12000 casualties (KIA + wounded)
US saying 2000 - 3000 KIA (with low confidence)
Senior European Intelligence Official (wonder what nationality...) 7000 to 9000 KIA.

Interesting.

MarshaBradyo · 09/03/2022 20:59

@Wrongkindofovercoat

Why do so many posters go straight to WWIII and the nuclear option ?

Is it anxiety ? I can understand that or is it they have a fast track to the Kremlin and are aware that Putin is ready to skip various rungs of the escalation ladder and go straight to the nuclear option if anyone, anywhere does anything he doesn't like ? I can't help feeling he would be taking an assisted short walk off a long pier if he really was at that level of twitchy ?

I don’t think it’s anxiety. More how can anyone on here be certain if what he’ll do? And then the gamble and risk is high stakes.

NATO, well US are taking the same line, and most countries are aware of risks