Ukraine invasion discussion thread part 11

[ScatteredMama82]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4499310-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-10?pg=40

First time posting in here but am I the only one thinking that the no fly zone will mean nothing to Putin anyway? As if he would actually listen? He won’t, which will lead to us shooting down Russian planes and this a bigger war, with more Innocent people involved and probably even more destruction in Ukraine. I may be way off the mark but I just can’t see him going ‘well damn, that’s that then’

Zelensky has stopped asking for a no fly zone. I'm not sure why people are worrying that we will either implement one.

@mariebaby3

First time posting in here but am I the only one thinking that the no fly zone will mean nothing to Putin anyway? As if he would actually listen? He won’t, which will lead to us shooting down Russian planes and this a bigger war, with more Innocent people involved and probably even more destruction in Ukraine. I may be way off the mark but I just can’t see him going ‘well damn, that’s that then’

That’s exactly the problem. You can be fairly certain Russia wouldn’t abide by any no-fly zone so you therefore inevitably have NATO forces having to enforce it - I.e shooting down Russian planes

@mariebaby3

He might do. A no fly zone would be in defence of Ukraine. A sovereign state attacked by its neighbour. Like Kuwait in 1991. There would be no mandate for an attack on Russia's sovereignty.

I do not believe Russia would attack a no-fly zone. Neither do I believe China would denounce it if communicated properly.

news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-west-has-serious-concern-putin-could-unleash-chemical-weapons-on-kyiv-12561783

As Putin and Russian Army gets more desparate due to major logistics problems, there is a risk Russia will use chemical weapons.

@GallopingHighRoad, you lost me when you mentioned sending in conscripts. The American armed forces have been all-volunteer since the early 1970s.

@Notonthestairs

Zelensky has stopped asking for a no fly zone. I'm not sure why people are worrying that we will either implement one.

He asked for one today

Does anyone have any idea what the minimum off ramp would be for Putin ?
Part of me thinks he won't be happy until he has the whole of Ukraine under his control. But how long would that take and probably equally or more importantly how much would that cost ?
I haven't seen any up to date maps on the invasion today , but as I mentioned on a earlier thread, the Russians hadn't made nearly as much ground as I would have expected if they are going for total domination. They already had Crimea and a large chunk of the Donbas and luhansk regions. The invasion from the south has probably been assisted by ships off the coast and supply routes being easier to manage.
Any update on the convoy to the North of Kyiv ? Are the Russians just moving around it and leaving it where it is ?

I agree and find the ‘we’re weak / balls’ stuff misplaced and a bit bolshy for the sake of it.

We are being weak. A maternity/paediatric hospital was bombed during a ceasefire. I'd hope you'd feel a bit "bolshy" if that happened in the UK.

Have I just seen a pregnant woman in the process of giving birth being carried out the bombed hospital on a stretcher??

Yes with a leg injury

I don't think there's any easy answer to any of this. Blood will continue to be spilt no matter which option we go with. I would like to see the Russian people rise up against Putin and his cronies and depose them, but we know that would be a bloody business, too - another Russian revolution.

I am tempted to lean towards NATO getting involved. I don't think Putin understands any language but that of brute force. I'm sure everyone knows what that would entail, and would mean all our lives are on the line. But is it right that we stand by whilst Ukrainain people are murdered and made homeless? Which country will be next? This is what I am mentally wrestling with. Putin is gambling on NATO not wanting to get into a possible European (and maybe nuclear) war. Right now, he's winning on that front.

@TiddyTidTwo

I agree and find the ‘we’re weak / balls’ stuff misplaced and a bit bolshy for the sake of it.

We are being weak. A maternity/paediatric hospital was bombed during a ceasefire. I'd hope you'd feel a bit "bolshy" if that happened in the UK.

Yes I appreciate NATO, and accept we’d retaliate if it happened.

I find the online fighting talk a bit off so I’m going to leave it there.

@elephantmarchingin ah. I'm obviously out of date. Last I'd seen was that he said he had "cooled down" after it being rejected.

@TiddyTidTwo okay, so how does us stepping in actually help the situation? Surely it’ll make it worse for the Ukrainian people and spread war further into Europe?

[quote holliem91]@AgnesWestern I agree.

I just keep telling myself that there are so many top people with a lot of insight to what's going on dealing with this. They know better than us and better than anyone on here and I just hope and pray everyday they make sensible and calculated choices as at the end of the day, it is normal civilians that have to suffer.

There isn't an easy solution out of this and whilst WWIII would definitely be NATO standing up to the bully - it would only result in more deaths. [/quote]
Yes there are people with more knowledge on this.

It’s a risk and people on mn won’t have the information

@AgnesWestern

Why do people keep saying “we” or “the west” or “NATO” should go in and sort this out now? We’ve been led to believe that we hold a power for saving the world. It’s laughable. It would actually make the attacks worse and more ferocious/more intense. Then we’d have a world war three to contend with on top of that, which would lead to far more deaths and more destruction worldwide, including in Ukraine.

It’s awful this is happening, but I don’t see a simple solution.

Hopefully a peaceful negotiation can be reached at some point soon and the unnecessary killings can stop. Although I know it may be a fallacy.

I may be selfish but I don’t want my child to be killed through nuclear war for this. I’m sorry if that sounds bad.

Completely agree but when I said this a couple of days ago I got called selfish

I respect that Marsha. Sometimes you have to fight, however. No one wants a war (minus governments) but war it is. The Ukrainians are fighting for their lives. They are experiencing something we haven't since WW2. My grandfather was a POW. I know what he fought for and it wasn't this shit show in 2022

DH said he read that attacking hospitals and schools is a "tactic" so the people will lose hope.

I cannot believe anyone would do that to fellow human beings. It is barbaric beyond imagining.

I don’t want to sacrifice my life or my child’s life for Ukraine.

There I’ve said it. I guess I’m not supposed to say that but I have.

So therefore I don’t want us to get involved.

Conflicts and wars are happening all over the world right now but apparently this one is the most important. And the one that we must end up in world war three (possibly nuclear) for.

I don't want a world war.
I do think we're being weak.
We said " never again" , after Hitler. We learn history to remind ourselves what happened (but with too much lean towards Hitler and nothing about what came after at the hands of socialists and communists).

But this is; again.

@TiddyTidTwo

Yes with a leg injury

Horrific

Love fall, this IS humanity though.

And if there’s a world war or a nuclear war, all those women and children who have fled Ukraine as refugees to be safe in other countries won’t exactly benefit either.

@TiddyTidTwo okay, so how does us stepping in actually help the situation? Surely it’ll make it worse for the Ukrainian people and spread war further into Europe?

You're assuming us stepping in will escalate and not the opposite. Putin has absolutely no chance against NATO. Reliance on their oil is what's stopping NATO.