Ukraine invasion discussion thread part 11

[ScatteredMama82]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4499310-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-10?pg=40

@TiddyTidTwo

I agree, especially in light of how his forces have performed in Ukraine. But NATO has also been grossly under-resourced. Twenty years ago Germany had 5000 MBTs. They now have 300.

I agree but tactically, and that's what is needed, we are superior. I would imagine if NATO lined up against his border with intent, just like 9/11, that may be enough to allow him to exit.

Well.

Don't forget the members of NATO include the USA. When you look at the economy and its military spending (quantity and quality) its quite a different picture.

Bottom line is sanctions are not working and Europe has been invaded, not in a military way where there are rules of engagement but where no rules are abided by and genocide in happening.

I saw a video today of a pensioner couple driving home in Ukraine in their ordinary car and a Russian tank turned its turret and fired on it, twice. Obviously both dead. Why?

James Waterhouse @JamWaterhouse
A sense of what's happening in Mariupol:

• At least 1,170 civilians have been killed there since the start of the invasion

• A mass grave has been dug because normal burials have become impossible

(Local authorities)

NATO has far superior military might compared to Russia.
The problem is Russia's crazy allies Eg China.
What if they decided to step in?

As I said previously something major was going to happen before these high level talks tomorrow to use as leverage. Let's just assume that Ukraine agree to the no nato demand. Is this enough for Putin to claim a win? possibly.. however I'm sure he will want some victory regarding crimea and Dombas. By Russia using the trapped people in Maripul and the threat of larger bombs while Kyiv is surrounded may make negotiations easier for them.

I'm sure they will also play the west and Nato isn't coming to help you, why risk us racing the country to the ground.

As the attacks get more indiscriminate and the use of thermobaric weapons. Realistically how is this going to de-escalate? I genuinely don’t believe Ukraine can hold off occupation much longer (even though the news likes to say Russia isn’t doing that well, I don’t believe it will continue to be the case) is it better for Ukraine as much as it pains me to come to a solution with Russia now over crimea and the Donbas area? Is it better they keep as much as possible before being completely taken over?

I don’t know what the right answer is but its such a painful and horrific thing that we are witnessing being played out

BBC
The EU has announced fresh sanctions against another 160 Russian citizens in the latest round of punishments targeting supporters of President Vladimir Putin's regime.

The measures will see 14 oligarchs and businessmen hit with sanctions, as well as 146 members of the Russian Russian Federation Council, or Senate, who supported the recognition of separatist regions in eastern Ukraine.

In total, some 862 Russian individuals and 53 entities have now been sanctioned by the bloc. A number of Belarusian institutions have also been targeted by the EU.

Tiddy I don't think the Russian economy has collapsed yet, in a few week's it will look extremely bleak.
How will these soldiers get paid? Will they want to fight with no wages?

US Congress to approve $13.6bn in aid for Ukraine

US Congressional leaders have reached a bipartisan deal to provide $13.6bn (£10.3bn) for Ukraine.

The funding will be attached to a broad government spending package expected to pass over the next couple of days.

The size of the Ukraine package is significantly higher than that which the White House had requested.

Roughly half of the money will go to humanitarian and economic aid, while the other half will aid the defence of Ukraine and neighbouring countries.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky says he has just spoken with the top Democrat in the House of Representatives, Speaker Nancy Pelosi, to thank her for the support.

@Papertyger

NATO has far superior military might compared to Russia. The problem is Russia's crazy allies Eg China. What if they decided to step in?

China? They won't step in here. They want the vast resources on their door step, which they will get however it plays out.

China are pragmatic, they certainly aren’t going to sever ties with the entire World for the sake of Russia.

Don't forget the members of NATO include the USA. When you look at the economy and its military spending (quantity and quality) its quite a different picture.

I'm aware of this. I'm an American and have active duty and former armed forces members in my family. My point is that it's not good for NATO to be so heavily reliant on one member, particularly one that's an ocean away. It also leaves the alliance vulnerable to idiots like Trump. Germany has admitted that it's defense spending is inadequate. The British Army only has 82k active duty personnel, and that's everyone, cooks and accountants included. That's a rather small force for a nation of 67 million people.

Why do people keep saying “we” or “the west” or “NATO” should go in and sort this out now? We’ve been led to believe that we hold a power for saving the world. It’s laughable. It would actually make the attacks worse and more ferocious/more intense.
Then we’d have a world war three to contend with on top of that, which would lead to far more deaths and more destruction worldwide, including in Ukraine.

It’s awful this is happening, but I don’t see a simple solution.

Hopefully a peaceful negotiation can be reached at some point soon and the unnecessary killings can stop. Although I know it may be a fallacy.

I may be selfish but I don’t want my child to be killed through nuclear war for this. I’m sorry if that sounds bad.

@AgnesWestern

Why do people keep saying “we” or “the west” or “NATO” should go in and sort this out now? We’ve been led to believe that we hold a power for saving the world. It’s laughable. It would actually make the attacks worse and more ferocious/more intense. Then we’d have a world war three to contend with on top of that, which would lead to far more deaths and more destruction worldwide, including in Ukraine.

It’s awful this is happening, but I don’t see a simple solution.

Hopefully a peaceful negotiation can be reached at some point soon and the unnecessary killings can stop. Although I know it may be a fallacy.

I may be selfish but I don’t want my child to be killed through nuclear war for this. I’m sorry if that sounds bad.

I feel the same as you @AgnesWestern, I understand what you're saying

This

@Papertyger

Tiddy I don't think the Russian economy has collapsed yet, in a few week's it will look extremely bleak. How will these soldiers get paid? Will they want to fight with no wages?

Russian factories are starting to close, laying off thousands of worker, thanks to the effects of special economic operations. This will get much worse over time, and fairly rapidly too I should think.

Iconic Russian car maker reportedly forced to halt production due to Western sanctions

I agree. China will stay out of it. There will be a big space for them to fill if we find our balls.

It's a tiny amount of money, but the symbolic significance cannot be overstated.
www.reuters.com/world/china-provide-5-mln-yuan-worth-humanitarian-assistance-ukraine-2022-03-09/

@AgnesWestern

Why do people keep saying “we” or “the west” or “NATO” should go in and sort this out now? We’ve been led to believe that we hold a power for saving the world. It’s laughable. It would actually make the attacks worse and more ferocious/more intense. Then we’d have a world war three to contend with on top of that, which would lead to far more deaths and more destruction worldwide, including in Ukraine.

It’s awful this is happening, but I don’t see a simple solution.

Hopefully a peaceful negotiation can be reached at some point soon and the unnecessary killings can stop. Although I know it may be a fallacy.

I may be selfish but I don’t want my child to be killed through nuclear war for this. I’m sorry if that sounds bad.

I agree and find the ‘we’re weak / balls’ stuff misplaced and a bit bolshy for the sake of it.

Yes good point. It has long been time for payback.

So long as funds do not go to private armies. You need to stop voting in weak presidents. You had Bush and Trump. We had Blair. They were idiots because they were hijacked so that war could be made legal. Once upon a time you set up a company for $10 and started to trade. Now you create a reason for war, send in the conscripts to do the dirty work, then privatise to gain the spoils. The lifecycle of a business evolved into modern day warfare.

Mariupol still doesn't have water?

@AgnesWestern I agree.

I just keep telling myself that there are so many top people with a lot of insight to what's going on dealing with this. They know better than us and better than anyone on here and I just hope and pray everyday they make sensible and calculated choices as at the end of the day, it is normal civilians that have to suffer.

There isn't an easy solution out of this and whilst WWIII would definitely be NATO standing up to the bully - it would only result in more deaths.

They've been melting snow for water 😩

China seems more keen on keeping Putin happy than keeping us pacified.

Is China scared of him? Does Russia buy more stuff from them?

That was meant for @MissConductUS by the way.