Page 5 | Ukraine invasion discussion thread part 11

Goldenbear · 09/03/2022 18:30

Yes I agree with above, 'doing something'.

ClaudineClare · 09/03/2022 18:31

But I'm not sure why he would want to start a war with the west, and if he did, why would he need to gradually goad us into it? He could just start it!

I don't actually have an answer to this tbh. I don't know. Maybe he is not thinking about the West at all with these war crimes. Maybe it is all about grinding Ukraine into the dust and he doesn't give a shit what the West thinks of what is happening.

Goldenbear · 09/03/2022 18:35

What does doing something look like that doesn't involve more and more deaths.

TheSillyMastiff · 09/03/2022 18:36

The cynic in me truly believes this is playing in to Putin's hands perfectly sadly, this has all been done to demonstrate and show Ukraine and other ex Soviet blocks that the west they want to join will not help them. That at their "hour of need" the great NATO let them down.

He's not a stupid man, he's calculated and knew full well NATO wouldn't involve itself because of the risk.

He's gambled on his economy and lost that battle, but he still has his fundamental belief enforced that The West sells cheques they can't cash when it comes to defence, like some snake oil salesman.

And he's not wrong is he.....

MarshaBradyo · 09/03/2022 18:40

@TheSillyMastiff

The cynic in me truly believes this is playing in to Putin's hands perfectly sadly, this has all been done to demonstrate and show Ukraine and other ex Soviet blocks that the west they want to join will not help them. That at their "hour of need" the great NATO let them down.

He's not a stupid man, he's calculated and knew full well NATO wouldn't involve itself because of the risk.

He's gambled on his economy and lost that battle, but he still has his fundamental belief enforced that The West sells cheques they can't cash when it comes to defence, like some snake oil salesman.

And he's not wrong is he.....

I agreed with pp but not this one tbh

All this is at Putin’s door not NATO, we would act if NATO country

GallopingHighRoad · 09/03/2022 18:41

@TiddyTidTwo

An escalation involving NATO would be very short lived. Putin is struggling just with Ukraine. He using nuclear threats to keep us out.

He won't do it, he'd have done it already

A no-fly zone should be enforced to de-escalate. It needs to happen quickly before it becomes too late.

Bullies do not fight those of equal strength. Bullies just go on to bully more. Zelensky is right with his assertion that it will be the Baltic states next. That is where Russia will escalate after Ukraine. Russia will not fire nukes.

TiddyTidTwo · 09/03/2022 18:44

s*illymastif
*
Exactly. NATO and the West look and are weak. We don't breathe a sigh of relief it's not happening to us.

To be upfront I'm ex British army and I am finding it incredibly difficult standing back and watching old white politicians scratching their balls

holliem91 · 09/03/2022 18:49

But does it make the west look weak? NATO is a defensive alliance and is only supposed to join in militarily if a NATO country is attacked. Putin can not say this makes the west look week as Ukraine is not a NATO country. Yes it's horrible standing back and watching all of this unfold but ultimately if he really wanted to prove the west was weak then he would attack a NATO country to prove it.

We have all united in terms of sanctions, providing military equipment etc but at the moment that's all we can do unless we want all out war.

elephantmarchingin · 09/03/2022 18:51

@GallopingHighRoad so glad you have a direct line to Putin to guarantee that he won't go nuclear!

GallopingHighRoad · 09/03/2022 18:51

@TiddyTidTwo

Is that more because you want revenge or more because you see it as a strategic necessity?

I am ex-forces also and I am frustrated we did not call this bluff earlier enough. The tide seems to be turning now as the reality of Russian occupation and future expansion and domination becomes clearer. The 'gung-ho' images of in popular media are titillating today, welcome as they are, but they will be forgotten tomorrow and a helicopter being downed by a shoulder missile does not win a war. It is Hollywood.

MarshaBradyo · 09/03/2022 18:51

@holliem91

But does it make the west look weak? NATO is a defensive alliance and is only supposed to join in militarily if a NATO country is attacked. Putin can not say this makes the west look week as Ukraine is not a NATO country. Yes it's horrible standing back and watching all of this unfold but ultimately if he really wanted to prove the west was weak then he would attack a NATO country to prove it.

We have all united in terms of sanctions, providing military equipment etc but at the moment that's all we can do unless we want all out war.

Hollie I agree with you. NATO doesn’t need to prove outside its remit although I get some on here are wanting this.

I don’t, I also don’t get how people are so certain re what Putin would do.

GallopingHighRoad · 09/03/2022 18:52

[quote elephantmarchingin]@GallopingHighRoad so glad you have a direct line to Putin to guarantee that he won't go nuclear! [/quote]
No. No facts. No guarantees. A strong belief.

TiddyTidTwo · 09/03/2022 18:53

Is that more because you want revenge or more because you see it as a strategic necessity?

Absolutely the latter. Putin cannot beat the combined forces of NATO. He knows this.

ParsleySageRosemary · 09/03/2022 18:55

It seems China is still blaming ‘the US-led NATO. If they can do anything re talks I wish they’d get on with it.

GallopingHighRoad · 09/03/2022 18:58

Russia is God.
Putin is the Messiah.
Oligarchs are his Disciples.
Russians are his subjects.

elephantmarchingin · 09/03/2022 18:58

@GallopingHighRoad regardless of the nuclear issue there will be more death, more suffering beyond Ukraine.

It's irresponsible to think there wouldn't be

colouringindoors · 09/03/2022 18:58

Utterly horrified and sickened by the strike on the maternity hospital. It's a war crime. Those poor, poor women.

What will Putin do next?

What should the world do next?!

MissConductUS · 09/03/2022 19:01

@TiddyTidTwo

Is that more because you want revenge or more because you see it as a strategic necessity?

Absolutely the latter. Putin cannot beat the combined forces of NATO. He knows this.

I agree, especially in light of how his forces have performed in Ukraine. But NATO has also been grossly under-resourced. Twenty years ago Germany had 5000 MBTs. They now have 300.

Peregrina · 09/03/2022 19:01

It seems China is still blaming ‘the US-led NATO. If they can do anything re talks I wish they’d get on with it.

China will look after its own interests first. This is the country committing genocide on the Yuighur people, don't forget.

GallopingHighRoad · 09/03/2022 19:02

[quote elephantmarchingin]@GallopingHighRoad regardless of the nuclear issue there will be more death, more suffering beyond Ukraine.

It's irresponsible to think there wouldn't be [/quote]
What would you do to curtail death and suffering? How far do you look to make that call? How far do you go?

TheSillyMastiff · 09/03/2022 19:03

Yes but he's specifically targeted a non NATO country who wanted to join, who wanted to westernise, he knew no matter how many emotional requests Ukraine made for assistance, it would all fall short of a physical presence.

He can sit there and say "but they aren't coming to help you are they, if they really, really wanted to they could, you keep asking and begging but they keep saying no as your civilians are dying."

Like some horrific and disturbed ear worm.

It's like some sort psychological warfare on Ukraine. He can see the people pleading for help, screaming no fly zone but it isn't coming.

Now we know why, we can't, it has implications, but when you are desperate and begging, rational thought and understanding of global politics and alliances understandably go out the window.

TheSillyMastiff · 09/03/2022 19:09

Maybe it's because I work with DV perpetrators and victims, and I view things sometimes through this lens.

The gaslighting, the aggressive nature, the psychological torture, the control and cohersive tactics.

He employs this on his own citizens so it's not far off to believe he'd employ it on one's he's not even supposed to be seen as "caring about".

Putin had brought out the full arsenal of a classic DV perpetrator.

TiddyTidTwo · 09/03/2022 19:11

I agree, especially in light of how his forces have performed in Ukraine. But NATO has also been grossly under-resourced. Twenty years ago Germany had 5000 MBTs. They now have 300.

I agree but tactically, and that's what is needed, we are superior. I would imagine if NATO lined up against his border with intent, just like 9/11, that may be enough to allow him to exit.

colouringindoors · 09/03/2022 19:14

How do War Crimes get prosecuted? How and when can/will the wheels start against Putin? There is surely plenty of evidence.

dollymuchymuchness · 09/03/2022 19:15

I freely admit I know nothing about Putin's security but surely someone needs to bloody well assassinate him?