Page 4 | Ukraine invasion discussion thread part 11

GallopingHighRoad · 09/03/2022 17:53

It will soon be too late to do something @jgw1
Russian forces have been regrouping and appraising the ground tactics and the news is going to get less 'gung-ho' in the fortnight ahead as the realism of the Russian army's capabilities sinks in.

MarshaBradyo · 09/03/2022 17:54

[quote elephantmarchingin]@jgw1 so more death is caused? [/quote]
I agree with you. I’m hoping that talks start de escalating situation.

toastfiend · 09/03/2022 17:57

@jgw1 like what, though? If we got directly involved it absolutely would escalate. Are you happy with that as an outcome?

Bear in mind that they're people's partners/parents/children that you're volunteering to send to be shot at out there.

EsmaCannonball · 09/03/2022 18:08

I don't know what the answer is, but not getting involved doesn't necessarily mean safety or de-escalation. As long as Putin is still in charge we're going to be living under a threat for years.

ClaudineClare · 09/03/2022 18:14

I'm starting to wonder if the stunningly cruel and depraved act of dropping Middle Eastern asylum seekers into the Belorussian forests to fight with border guards or die this winter was also a preparation for them to have more fuel for their whataboutery

@time4anothername could you please explain more about this, I don't understand? Did this really happen?

BreadInCaptivity · 09/03/2022 18:15

@AgnesWestern

Does anyone think the peace talks will come to something?

No.

Putin is doubling down.

He won't put anything on the table Ukrainian's can accept without being Ukraine.

The plan seems to have shifted to a Syrian strategy of raze the cities and break the will of the people. Civilians are not collateral damage.

Their suffering is the strategy.

Neverendingdust · 09/03/2022 18:16

I feel as though this situation has crossed the point of no return. De escalation would of course be a welcome benefit for the Ukrainian people but relations with the wider global community are in my view now beyond repair. I fear it’s only a matter of time until things spiral out of control. Here’s hoping history proves me wrong

MarshaBradyo · 09/03/2022 18:18

@EsmaCannonball

I don't know what the answer is, but not getting involved doesn't necessarily mean safety or de-escalation. As long as Putin is still in charge we're going to be living under a threat for years.

Nothing is guaranteed but I’m relieved the NATO position is holding.

EsmaCannonball · 09/03/2022 18:18

Ministry of Defence now saying Russia has used thermobaric weapons. War criminal wankers.

jgw1 · 09/03/2022 18:20

[quote toastfiend]@jgw1 like what, though? If we got directly involved it absolutely would escalate. Are you happy with that as an outcome?

Bear in mind that they're people's partners/parents/children that you're volunteering to send to be shot at out there.[/quote]
It would appear that the Russian tactics are to flatten any Ukrainian city they come to and anyone in it.
With occasional pauses to let terrified people try and escape with great difficulty to the next place that will get bombarded.

Do we just stand by while that happens?

LizDoingTheCanCan · 09/03/2022 18:20

@ClaudineClare The asylum seekers were used as political fodder, and sadly many died. The press here barely reported it.

www.theguardian.com/global-development/commentisfree/2022/mar/04/embraced-or-pushed-back-on-the-polish-border-sadly-not-all-refugees-are-welcome

jgw1 · 09/03/2022 18:21

[quote LizDoingTheCanCan]@ClaudineClare The asylum seekers were used as political fodder, and sadly many died. The press here barely reported it.

www.theguardian.com/global-development/commentisfree/2022/mar/04/embraced-or-pushed-back-on-the-polish-border-sadly-not-all-refugees-are-welcome[/quote]
At least the UK government is consistent. No refugees are welcome here.

ClaudineClare · 09/03/2022 18:22

I wonder how much more we can all stomach before the public's attitude turns to pro-war with Russia. I think that is partly Putin's aim with these war crimes? Make it impossible for the West to keep its face turned away,

I am a mostly a pacifist, but my god I want these bastards to pay for what they are doing.

TheSillyMastiff · 09/03/2022 18:23

As the weeks press on and the invasion continues, you'll see this dropping out of the news as it is, to being segments on news reports rather than full coverage.

Putin is clear his only stance is "having Ukraine" I don't even think he cares what state it will be in when he gets it, or the population who will have remained because they have no choice. Russia is going to be bankrupted at this rate in 5-10 years, but at least it will have enlarged itself by the land mass that is Ukraine.

There is nothing the west can do, we can't get involved we can't enforce a no fly zone, we can't do anything except arm them and hope for the best.

The west won't endanger itself over Ukraine that point is clear.

I fear what we are about to witness of peace talks come to nothing, is the destruction of Ukraine.

We are basically at a stale mate. It's so horrifically sad. It really is.

TiddyTidTwo · 09/03/2022 18:24

Bombing civilians, maternity hospitals, thermobaric weapons, land mines on refugee escape routes, disconnecting Chernobyl....

So when do we draw the line?

Putin is pissing up our backs, telling us it's raining

holliem91 · 09/03/2022 18:24

@ClaudineClare Why would Russia want war with the west though? Sorry if that seems a silly question, I just don't understand.

Surely if the west gets involved it just escalates from there on and it would be a catastrophe for everyone.

MarshaBradyo · 09/03/2022 18:25

@TiddyTidTwo

Bombing civilians, maternity hospitals, thermobaric weapons, land mines on refugee escape routes, disconnecting Chernobyl....

So when do we draw the line?

Putin is pissing up our backs, telling us it's raining

What do you want though?

How much war escalation can you take

toastfiend · 09/03/2022 18:25

@jgw1 I don't know what the answer is but I don't think escalating the situation is helpful to anyone.

I also see a lot of "we should get boots on the ground!" "Send the military to do something!" from people that are comfortable that they won't be going themselves. I think it's important that those people acknowledge that the military isn't a faceless force that you get to send in to appease your moral disquietude, they're real people with families who could conceivably die in the process of doing what you're proposing. Sure, it's their job, it's what they signed up for, but that doesn't make it more palatable and I think there's an element of dissociation from that when people speak about "doing something" in those kind of vague terms.

shreddednips · 09/03/2022 18:25

@ClaudineClare

I wonder how much more we can all stomach before the public's attitude turns to pro-war with Russia. I think that is partly Putin's aim with these war crimes? Make it impossible for the West to keep its face turned away,

I am a mostly a pacifist, but my god I want these bastards to pay for what they are doing.

But I'm not sure why he would want to start a war with the west, and if he did, why would he need to gradually goad us into it? He could just start it!

Lonelycrab · 09/03/2022 18:26

I think that is partly Putin's aim with these war crimes

I do too. Provoke a response to widen the conflict; to justify escalation

ClaudineClare · 09/03/2022 18:26

Thank you LizDoingTheCanCan. To my shame, I didn't know this.

EsmaCannonball · 09/03/2022 18:26

Apparently the Russians themselves have admitted to using the thermobaric weapons. I'm guessing they're admitting to this to give them more leverage in negotiations. As with using novichok, and not being particularly secretive about it, they are demonstrating how big a bastards they are prepared to be.

MarshaBradyo · 09/03/2022 18:27

@TheSillyMastiff

As the weeks press on and the invasion continues, you'll see this dropping out of the news as it is, to being segments on news reports rather than full coverage.

Putin is clear his only stance is "having Ukraine" I don't even think he cares what state it will be in when he gets it, or the population who will have remained because they have no choice. Russia is going to be bankrupted at this rate in 5-10 years, but at least it will have enlarged itself by the land mass that is Ukraine.

There is nothing the west can do, we can't get involved we can't enforce a no fly zone, we can't do anything except arm them and hope for the best.

The west won't endanger itself over Ukraine that point is clear.

I fear what we are about to witness of peace talks come to nothing, is the destruction of Ukraine.

We are basically at a stale mate. It's so horrifically sad. It really is.

This sums it up pretty much. And yes awful.

TiddyTidTwo · 09/03/2022 18:28

An escalation involving NATO would be very short lived. Putin is struggling just with Ukraine. He using nuclear threats to keep us out.

He won't do it, he'd have done it already

toastfiend · 09/03/2022 18:29

@EsmaCannonball

Apparently the Russians themselves have admitted to using the thermobaric weapons. I'm guessing they're admitting to this to give them more leverage in negotiations. As with using novichok, and not being particularly secretive about it, they are demonstrating how big a bastards they are prepared to be.

The West have also used thermobaric weapons in the past, we just call them something different that's less emotive. It's horrific either way, I'm not arguing that, but we don't necessarily have the moral high ground on this one.