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Ukraine invasion discussion thread part 11

999 replies

ScatteredMama82 · 09/03/2022 15:43

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4499310-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-10?pg=40

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mpsw · 11/03/2022 10:16

Ukraine is a state party to the BWC (convention against biological weapons) which includes regulation of dual use equipment. The trouble with verifying BW is that the manufacture of the agents can be done by switching production from totally innocent (and indeed desirable) plant, such as that used in vaccine manufacture or belonging to universities.

Research into defence against BW is also permitted, but is meant to be tightly controlled and subject to international challenge and inspection.

BW is difficuit to deliver to the battlefield, and denies the ground to your own troops as well. Also it takes days or weeks to have an effect (the length of time for the disease to incubate, and then for the infected to start dying), so that means a very different rhythm of battle.

CW is another matter

Bluebellsunderthetrees · 11/03/2022 10:18

Why are the US worried about the Russians taking control of the labs and the virus contained there if the labs are nothing to worry about.

AuldAlliance · 11/03/2022 10:21

@Bluebellsunderthetrees

Why are the US worried about the Russians taking control of the labs and the virus contained there if the labs are nothing to worry about.
Because a virus used for medical/scientific research can be used for other purposes.
meditrina · 11/03/2022 10:28

I wouid have thought that if Russia intended to use BW, it would use to own.

If they wanted to false flag, then using anything the Ukrainians might have wouid make sense. But surely that would have to be opportunistic, as they can't be sure that at point of capture the agent would be in a useable state or in sufficient quantities (and with a viable delivery system to hand)

PestorPeston · 11/03/2022 10:29

The US has lots of foreign biological research centres
defencejournal.com/2020/05/10/covid-19-and-the-course-of-bioweapons

Bluebellsunderthetrees · 11/03/2022 10:30

@AuldAlliance Well "medical" can cover a lot eg the gain of function experiments carried out that made it easier or possible for deadly viruses to infect humans where previously they couldn't. This was done under the pretext of developing vaccines. It was roundly condemned, banned for a while and then started up again. US and China.

Bluebellsunderthetrees · 11/03/2022 10:32

[quote PestorPeston]The US has lots of foreign biological research centres
defencejournal.com/2020/05/10/covid-19-and-the-course-of-bioweapons[/quote]
That's not reassuring

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 11/03/2022 10:34

So Article 5 is the difference between Ukrainian and NATO lives? I really struggle with this. Also... the end of NATO... isnt that Putin's end game? Will he not just continue to threaten nuclear? It is working well for him. Is Article 5 enough of a deterrent for Putin in the future? I doubt it.

thereisonlyoneofme · 11/03/2022 10:37

Until the Russian people experience destruction on their own soil,. which they are not doing, they will not rebel against Putin. They are removed from the conflict.

Bluebellsunderthetrees · 11/03/2022 10:39

@mpsw

Ukraine is a state party to the BWC (convention against biological weapons) which includes regulation of dual use equipment. The trouble with verifying BW is that the manufacture of the agents can be done by switching production from totally innocent (and indeed desirable) plant, such as that used in vaccine manufacture or belonging to universities.

Research into defence against BW is also permitted, but is meant to be tightly controlled and subject to international challenge and inspection.

BW is difficuit to deliver to the battlefield, and denies the ground to your own troops as well. Also it takes days or weeks to have an effect (the length of time for the disease to incubate, and then for the infected to start dying), so that means a very different rhythm of battle.

CW is another matter

Interesting thank you
CaveMum · 11/03/2022 10:46

Like it or not most western nations have their own biological warfare research programs. We’ve got one - Porton Down in Wiltshire.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48540653

WhathaveIdoneagain · 11/03/2022 10:57

Drone likely flying from Ukraine crashes in Croatia

www.washingtonpost.com/world/flying-object-crashes-in-croatian-capital-triggers-blast/2022/03/11/bf078586-a111-11ec-9438-255709b6cddc_story.html

Local sources were all worried if it was Russian. The article states it is likely to ve Ukrainian.

Bluebellsunderthetrees · 11/03/2022 10:58

[quote CaveMum]Like it or not most western nations have their own biological warfare research programs. We’ve got one - Porton Down in Wiltshire.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48540653[/quote]
That's in our own country. Not in another county next door to our long standing enemies.
Nor in a country that has civil war/dodgy militia/corruption and some dodgy state sponsored goings on

DGRossetti · 11/03/2022 11:03

When will we talk about a Ukrainian diaspora ?

Will Ukrainians - like Kurds and Palestinians - end up without a country to call their own ?

GallopingHighRoad · 11/03/2022 11:10

I wouid have thought that if Russia intended to use BW, it would use to own.

It is. Putin was created in a test tube.

RedToothBrush · 11/03/2022 11:14

Today's lead story in the Daily Mail is about a Russian TV show and how guests on it defied new laws about criticising the way.

The story is actually running about two or three days behind when it was broadcast and has been reported elsewhere before so it the Mail picking up on this.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10600711/Ukraine-war-Guests-Russian-state-TV-invasion-like-Afghanistan-worse.html
Russian state television DEFIES President Putin's propaganda edict and broadcasts criticism of the war in Ukraine - with guests describing the shambolic invasion as 'like Afghanistan, but even WORSE

Semyond Bagdasarov, an academic, used an appearance on Russia 1's prime time talk show 'An Evening with Vladimir Soloviev' - a man referred to as Putin's propagandist-in-chief - to call on the Russian president to end the attack, while warning allies like China and India could soon turn their backs on Moscow.

'There are more people and they're more advanced in their weapon handling', he said, 'We don't need that. Enough already.' He then added: 'If this picture starts to transform into an absolute humanitarian disaster, even our close allies like China and India will be forced to distance themselves from us.'

'This public opinion, with which they're saturating the entire world, can play out badly for us... Ending this operation will stabilise things within the country.'

Karen Shakhnazarov, a filmmaker and state pundit, also sought to bust the Kremlin's narrative that it is conducting a limited 'special operation' in the Donbass region by referencing attacks on the capital of Kyiv - which is located hundreds of miles away.

'I have a hard time imagining taking cities such as Kyiv. I can't imagine how that would look,' he said, even as Putin's troops close in on the capital and launch attacks into the outskirts.

The pair spoke out despite the Russian government last week passing laws that threaten 15 years in jail for anyone publishing 'fake news' about the war - though the definition of 'fake' is set by the Russian government itself, meaning any an all criticism of the Kremlin's actions is likely to be classed as such

Now an academic and a filmmaker are exactly the type of people you would expect to be saying things like this. They are absolutely not likely to be reflective of wider public opinion by a long shot.

The TV host, has himself been sanctioned by the West because he's an important figure with a considerable amount of influence. Its not fringe. This is pretty much prime time.

It is slightly surprising that these two were even considered as guests though - it has to be something of a miscalculation by the show / channel. Especially after what the show had said in previous nights. Its quite something that these guests did do this all the same, as its undoubtable they will have consequences for it.

The tv host is mentioned in a daily beast article, again from a day or two ago, and complained that he was being bombarded with pictures of dead Russian soldiers. He wasn't alone. Other stars complained that they were being harassed by Ukrainians by phone and via the internet in what they described as an organised campaign.

www.thedailybeast.com/vladimir-putins-state-tv-stars-rage-about-getting-trolled-with-photos-of-dead-russian-troops-in-ukraine?ref=wrap

The discussion on another show was about how Russia was losing the information war and how organised the Ukrainians were.

This to me doesn't sound like an organised campaign. This sounds like an forced explanation following many Ukrainians contacting friends and family in desparation to try and let them know whats going on.

It was spontaneous.

It does show how much the Russians are nonetheless going to struggle to cover up huge numbers of dead. It cannot be. They will have to find alternative explanations and perhaps causes of death.

They can't say 'our strategy and tactics were fucking awful'.

When you look at it from this angle, claiming that Kyiv and Odessa have been developing chemical weapons - ahead of an assault also perhaps has another significance which may not show they are about to use chemical weapons. (Though it It may well be the case that they will)

But going back to Zugzwang theory - the army is stuck in Ukraine. They are in formation to attack Kyiv and therefore commited to doing so. They cannot just reverse. Especially not the Russian army. Its just not in their mind set to reformulate plans and revert to being flexible. The only thing they can do is commit even more to the original plan.

Yet by now, there will be an awareness that following through also means very heavy losses which will require a face saving explanation which suits their agenda and keeps the Russian public onboard.

What better than to say 'they were killed by chemical weapons' rather than admit that they are doubling down politically and don't care about the human cost even to their own. They won't want to admit to it being to a conscious decision to crack on to prevent a massive uturn despite it being very obvious that its going to be a blood bath to advance.

I think we need to be aware of the scale of the rhetoric and lies needed to be able to manage such huge military loses and what explanations thats going to require.

Even so, it does seem that there is awareness of the reality of the what the Russians have entrenched themselves into. Even if those who have said it, now disappear.

Its a mistake that America also made in Afghanistan. Funnily enough Rory Stewart documentary on Afghanistan was from 10 years ago and his point in that was that for ten years there had been a political inability to admit they had become embroiled in an insurgency they would never truly put down and at some point the US would have to accept this and make something an embarrassing exit. It was prophetic.

HereComesSpringAgain · 11/03/2022 11:16

I'm a bit worried for this situation

My ds is a doc receptionist/pa and says the surgery just cannot accommodate anymore patients, it's at capacity now.

Is there a plan for this. And schools? I feel awful thinking this way but there's now hints at food shortages so this will escalate quickly

It feels like we are part of this way already in a way

DrBlackbird · 11/03/2022 11:20

From a FT article… Commentary on Russian state TV are pushing that the EU wants to colonise Russia and use NATO and racist Ukraine to do it.

Similiar’ish tactics worked on a significant portion of the US in being persuaded that trump’s election was ‘stolen’ from him triggering the capital hill riot last year. So it could be plausible that a good portion of the Russian population can be persuaded that the EU wants to ‘colonise’ Russia via Ukraine. Which means no toppling of Putin from within Russia. It would have to be the military. That doesn’t seem likely.

RedToothBrush · 11/03/2022 11:22

@Bluebellsunderthetrees

Why are the US worried about the Russians taking control of the labs and the virus contained there if the labs are nothing to worry about.
Labs might not contain weapons or products that are in a state that cause danger.

However labs will contain products that can misused if they fall into a hostile parties hands and they perhaps will have knowledge that can be used in a hostile way in the future.

For example : say Russian invaded and found entire databases of dna data. It could be something innocent like covid research or police files. That information could help identify people or be used to develop targeted weapons.

This is sensitive stuff you don't want in a known enemies hands.

EsmaCannonball · 11/03/2022 11:28

Lukashenko and Putin are in a meeting. The table in between them is small, like an end-table you'd stick your biscuits on. Lukashenko's probably had to bathe in sheep-dip before he was allowed in the bunker. Putin seems inordinately fond of ormolu and magnolia paint.

If you're a FSB double-agent now would be a good time for a buy one get one free assassination.

PestorPeston · 11/03/2022 11:35

Sergey Beseda, head of the 5th Service (Service of Operational Information and International Relations) of the FSB has been arrested and detained. Rumors in Moscow that he was fomenting an overthrow of Putin.

WhathaveIdoneagain · 11/03/2022 11:36

I have seen an article in Hungarian about Russians fleeing via Finland. Very few were willing to talk, but it was very interesting. This is what I found English: www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/09/europe-russians-leaving/

PestorPeston · 11/03/2022 11:37

A reasonable source for the above
twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1502227866540515328

WhathaveIdoneagain · 11/03/2022 11:41

TBF it is pretty paranoid on both sides: metro.co.uk/2022/03/07/ukraine-peace-negotiator-put-to-death-after-claims-he-was-russia-spy-16227598/

Bluebellsunderthetrees · 11/03/2022 11:46

@RedToothBrush thank you although I do wonder what actually was in the labs