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Ukraine invasion discussion thread part 11

999 replies

ScatteredMama82 · 09/03/2022 15:43

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4499310-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-10?pg=40

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9
Peregrina · 10/03/2022 17:23

So what exactly happens to those who went earlier taking Truss's advice?

TheSillyMastiff · 10/03/2022 17:48

@Peregrina

So what exactly happens to those who went earlier taking Truss's advice?
Every British soldier knows you can't go AWOL (absent without leave) and run off to a foreign war. They would have known the "advice" didn't apply to them.

And I'm pretty sure if they asked for leave for 2 days to leave or a week but then didn't return to camp they then are AWOL - which will get you a stint in collie, join a foreign army/war that's court Marshall territory.

Papertyger · 10/03/2022 17:58

The stasis never went away.
I guess they have more people to Keep a lid on now hence recruitment drive

MarshaBradyo · 10/03/2022 18:07

@dreamingbohemian

Thanks Magic and Marsha

I don't know if this will be further reassuring or not but -- there are dozens of conflict scholars in my department, no one thinks we are headed for nuclear war. The nuclear risk must be managed but it is extremely unlikely that we will see nuclear use.

Also we should not worry too much about China sticking their necks out for Russia. They are 'strategic partners' not allies. China will do whatever is best for China, that does not include getting dragged into wars or crushing sanctions. China has a ton of investment in Eastern Europe, it will not want to see anything escalate further.

Yes that’s really helpful thanks
VikingVolva · 10/03/2022 18:23

Anyone know if Chinese businesses are pulling out of Russia?

Because if not, then does that represent the opportunities for new players in Russia?

Also, there's precedent for long-term 'frozen' lines of conflict - look at North and South Korea and the two entities on Cyprus.

RedToothBrush · 10/03/2022 18:23

Jennifer Griffin @jengriffinFNC
Putin has overestimated his ability to use cryptocurrency to bypass sanctions; US has intercepted and taken down a number of crypto networks: FBI Chief Chris Wray tells Senate Intell Committee.

Whoops!

Papertyger · 10/03/2022 18:25

China interests me.
West is supposed to be a huge market for them, bigger than Russia but it's Russia they cosy up too!
I guess the politics side wins out.
As mentioned earlier 1989 was a problem for them so I wouldn't be so sure they would stand back.

RedToothBrush · 10/03/2022 18:30

@VikingVolva

Anyone know if Chinese businesses are pulling out of Russia?

Because if not, then does that represent the opportunities for new players in Russia?

Also, there's precedent for long-term 'frozen' lines of conflict - look at North and South Korea and the two entities on Cyprus.

Russians need money to buy things.

You cannot sell much to people who can't afford anything.

You could take a long term investment strategy but its still problematic cos chinas main market is the us.

They use separate banks for north korean stuff so if they are sanctioned in response by the us, its not so much of a problem.

But it illustrates the point of how the chinese separated and protected interests in this way (which isn't straightforward).

Papertyger · 10/03/2022 18:38

USA maybe cutting off crypto stuff but I did think right at the beginning of this I bet this event will be the birth proper of block chain and crypto style.

DownNative · 10/03/2022 18:39

@dreamingbohemian

When people talk about the partition of Ukraine they usually mean dividing it along the Dnieper, i.e. cutting Ukraine into eastern and western halves. This would obviously not be an acceptable outcome.

The recognition of the DNR and LNR would not be nearly as big a deal. They are relatively small regions on the Russian border. They have been controlled by Russia in practice for 8 years now. Ukraine can live without them for now.

The most pragmatic thing would be to take a long-term view about bringing those regions back into Ukraine. First, whenever Putin departs, this successor might be more willing to negotiate on this. But second, especially if Russia remains sanctioned, people in those republics will increasingly feel resentful and left behind as their living conditions worsen while the rest of Ukraine becomes more integrated with the West. They may eventually want to return.

Letting Russia have the DNR/LNR and Crimea may feel like rewarding his aggression but this was the status quo before the war, so it's not changing things that much in practice. I think Ukraine could live with this if it meant ending the war. Then focus on long-term winning them back (though I don't think this will ever happen with Crimea).

Any final version of a partitioned Ukraine will depend on how far in Putin's army can penetrate.

Whatever Putin's Russia has at the end of it, they're likely to want to keep hold of it. After all, the Russian narrative is very heavily that Ukraine is anti-Russia thanks to other European states plus the USA and that Ukrainians as a result are victims of a false consciousness. In other words, Putin's Russia sees Russia (Novorossiya) and Ukraine along with Belarus (Malorussia) as one country with Moscow as the centre of reunification.

It is naive to think that whoever leads Russia after Putin will be any more amenable to the West and will give up any land gains in a future without Putin. To think so is to not understand how both the Russian political elite and the vast majority of the Russian citizenry view the West as well as NATO.

"....[the] widespread Russian suspicion that Washington is seeking to assure Russian status as a loyal vassal by means of further disintegration, weakening and decline of the Russian state.

The gradual conversion of the Russian elites to such a view in the 1990s was the main reason for the collapse of Russia’s pro-Western orientation in the 1990s. The proponents of a pro-Western Russian policy (which essentially implied Russia becoming a U.S. satellite) have since been completely marginalized because they cannot explain what tangible benefits such a course would bring Russia to outweigh the inevitable losses for Russian national security and statehood in general.

Even now, the few remaining Russian liberals tend to avoid any discussions on foreign policy and national defense issues. Much to the disappointment of their Western “friends,” they make it clear by doing so that a well-articulated, pro-Western political platform has essentially ceased to exist in Russia.

Russia’s efforts against NATO enlargement are a result of the foreign policy consensus that had coalesced even before the arrival of President Putin....

....NATO came to be seen by most Russians as a deeply hostile, anti-Russian military coalition long before the current crisis. Russians believe that NATO’s sole task is to maintain a state of confrontation with Russia, and most would subscribe to the idea that “without Russia, there would be no NATO.”"

Ruslan Pukhov, director of the Moscow-based think tank Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies.

That is how a majority of Russians think and this informs their views on the war against Ukraine. The next leader after Putin will be just as hardliners and the Russian cabinet is full of anti-West politicians.

Ukraine does NOT have the military capability to take back Donbas, Luhansk or Crimea now or in the long term future. The Ukrainians certainly don't have the political clout to do so either.

It's much more likely that Ukraine will, once certain assurances are given to the Ukrainian minority in those areas, simply accept they are now permanently partitioned from them.

But partition of any kind will not occur until Putin's Russia fails:

  1. to take Kyiv

  2. to install a pro-Russia puppet government

Otherwise, Putin's Russia will pursue a scorched earth policy and raze major Ukrainian cities to the ground before retreating with the parts of Ukraine they currently hold which isn't just three disputed areas.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 10/03/2022 18:50

Putin holding on to Donbas and Crimea will be an absolute travesty because the only reason he forcibly seized those places in the first place is because they are the most valuable parts of Ukraine for his mafia cronies. The idea that he was rescuing Russian-speaking people from Nazis was an utter smokescreen

Quite. Two of the Lithium deposits are in the east of Ukraine in these regions, the other being more central.

www.nytimes.com/2022/03/02/climate/ukraine-lithium.html

DuncinToffee · 10/03/2022 19:07

UK's visa centre in France 'open by Friday'

Phil Mackie In Calais

The French authorities have announced where the UK's “pop-up” visa processing centre for Ukrainian refugees will be. It’s in Arras, which is one hour from Calais, two from Brussels and three from Paris.

Although the UK government has promised that it would be open for several days, it still isn’t. But the French authorities say it will be by Friday.

Many of the hundreds of Ukrainians who are in northern France have spent the past week travelling to the French and Belgian capitals to submit biometric information and documentation.

Many have already been processed and it’s thought most will be by next Tuesday when the process becomes simpler and will move online.

However, the new process will still exclude anyone who fled without their passport or identity document, so many will still need to attend a processing centre in person.

DGRossetti · 10/03/2022 19:09

@RedToothBrush

Jennifer Griffin *@jengriffinFNC* Putin has overestimated his ability to use cryptocurrency to bypass sanctions; US has intercepted and taken down a number of crypto networks: FBI Chief Chris Wray tells Senate Intell Committee.

Whoops!

Very few people understand cryptocurrencies (which is a function of understanding blockchain).

If your secret plan involves cryptocurrencies, you may wish to review it.

Urgently.

DGRossetti · 10/03/2022 19:10

@Papertyger

USA maybe cutting off crypto stuff but I did think right at the beginning of this I bet this event will be the birth proper of block chain and crypto style.
Not that I've seen.
WeAreTheHeroes · 10/03/2022 19:14

It occurs to me that some of the families of prominent Russians may be based here for their protection should the senior guy fall out with Putin.

Papertyger · 10/03/2022 19:16

Down native, interesting perspective.

1dayatatime · 10/03/2022 19:17

@Wrongkindofovercoat

I know a bit about lithium and this really doesn't have anything to do with lithium at all. Russia invaded Ukraine for a variety of aggressive reasons and wants to annex Donetsk and Luhansk and Crimea but lithium really has nothing to do with it.

Ukraine was reported to have unproven lithium deposits of up to 500 thousand tonnes. By comparison Chile has proven deposits of 9 million tonnes and Australia 5 million tonnes.

Even Cornwall has greater unproven lithium deposits than Ukraine so if Putin's real motivation was lithium then he would be better off invading St Austell.

CaveMum · 10/03/2022 19:25

DH now works for a research think tank. I mentioned the stuff we discussed the other day about batteries and solar energy and he said he’s had a massive increase in research involving battery technology crossing his desk.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 10/03/2022 19:26

@1dayatatime , It doesn't have to be a primary reason though does it ? Just another reason Russia will want to hang onto those particular areas ?

Wrongkindofovercoat · 10/03/2022 19:35

Even Cornwall has greater unproven lithium deposits than Ukraine so if Putin's real motivation was lithium then he would be better off invading St Austell

Can I suggest from a strategic point of view, he avoids invading Cornwall in August Wink

1dayatatime · 10/03/2022 19:36

@Wrongkindofovercoat

Just to clarify 500k tonnes of unproven lithium deposits is bugger all in the world of lithium. It has absolutely zip to do with lithium.

AuldAlliance · 10/03/2022 19:39

Interview with Alexander Vindman. Quite interesting....

Wrongkindofovercoat · 10/03/2022 19:44

@1dayatatime nice little earner for someone though ? Enough to buy a decent yacht ( two helipads job ? ) and a nice house in London ? Especially if you aren't that fussed about health and safety or honest accounting, so if there are 500,000 tons of lithium, whats the current price for lithium per mt at the moment ?

Natsku · 10/03/2022 19:50

yle.fi/news/3-12353004 "Helsinki transport map renames Russian embassy as 'Volodymyr Zelenskyy Park" Grin sadly the transport people are going to correct the edit though