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Ukraine invasion discussion thread part 11

999 replies

ScatteredMama82 · 09/03/2022 15:43

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4499310-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-10?pg=40

OP posts:
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9
WeAreTheHeroes · 10/03/2022 11:37

I'm sure I've read or heard that the hospital had been winding down and moving patients out because of the situation, but there will be some patients for whom being moved is dangerous in itself.

CaveMum · 10/03/2022 11:37

@RedToothBrush

Bill Browder *@Billbrowder* Wealthy Russians flock to Dubai as west tightens sanctions. Sounds like we may need to add the UAE to the FATF blacklist if they are assisting Russians evade sanctions. That’s a very serious offence.

Smart wealthy Russian, betting that the west cant do much against UAE cos oil.

We have plenty of previous in looking the other way when it comes to Dubai!
BringBackCoffeeCreams · 10/03/2022 11:38

@WeAreTheHeroes

I think carrying on as normal is psychologically important. It's one of things we're always advised about the terrorist threat and distraction improves people's mood and morale.
I agree. I'm in Sweden and the first bit of advice we're being given by our local authority is to carry on with life as normal. Yesterday I had to go into the city for a hospital appointment and it's the first real bit of 'normal' since this kicked off. Yesterday was the first day where I didn't feel a dark cloud of doom hanging over me. I think it's because I was too busy with normal life to allow the horrors to encroach on my mind.
RedToothBrush · 10/03/2022 11:38

twitter.com/pevchikh/status/1501878715709632518
A thread on why some unexplained wealth orders would be handy right now.

HMRC can seize (not freeze - seize) unexplained wealth.

This is separate to sanctions.

MarshaBradyo · 10/03/2022 11:43

Ok it was James Heappey on R4 and he wouldn’t confirm whether NATO would intervene as it’s ‘not helpful to get into firm commitment where red line is, but chemical weapons have prompted international response in the past’

Goldenbear · 10/03/2022 11:47

I agree about the media and think they are irresponsible, quite a few people I have spoken to feel the same about this. The sensationalist press are seemingly relishing the uneasiness as it increases their profit margins. It seems morally repugnent to me. I'm reminded of Orwell:

War is Peace

Freedom is Slavery

Ignorance is Strength (1984)

On this thread a poster has stated how 'selfish' others are for not intervening, for having thoughts that are different to them, wanting to apply some intellectual rigour to the next steps and fundamentally wanting peace as an aim is not wrong. It is not the construct of their reality but it is for others and that shouldn't be dismissed.

Neverendingdust · 10/03/2022 11:47

@RedToothBrush

Bill Browder *@Billbrowder* Wealthy Russians flock to Dubai as west tightens sanctions. Sounds like we may need to add the UAE to the FATF blacklist if they are assisting Russians evade sanctions. That’s a very serious offence.

Smart wealthy Russian, betting that the west cant do much against UAE cos oil.

Ruble to AED exchange rates aren’t that great - let’s hope they’re taking USD for spending money…
MarshaBradyo · 10/03/2022 11:48

[quote Jisforjelly]@MarshaBradyo yes it was the same person as you stated there.
I think as per usual the media is reporting things incorrectly for clicks and as you say, whipping people into a frenzy. It’s not fair. I know that’s their job, but it doesn’t seem right in the scheme of things.
As said many times, we need cool heads to prevail.[/quote]
We seem to have created a system whereby we are so affected en masse by the media it’s not always in our best interests. It feels much stronger in the last half decade but then we’ve had bigger issues to contend with.

EsmaCannonball · 10/03/2022 11:48

Can't believe people on here watched Lavrov and thought, 'Hmm, he may have a point.' I really think the current situation merits Mumsnet HQ launching an investigation into the possibility of bots. Too much suspicious activity on Ukraine threads. Too many threads with innocuous titles like 'Why Can't People in the UK Have Different Opinions Anymore?' where, a few posts in, the OP links to John Pilger articles. Too many posters linking to disinformation or debunked claims.

colouringindoors · 10/03/2022 11:52

BeckyWithTheGoodHair010101

Lavrov is saying that the maternity hospital had been taken over by Azov on 7th March and had no patients.
Whilst I would like to think he is a lying bastard - are we being played with Ukrainian propaganda also?

Bullshit.

Its amazing how Russian missiles in Syria just found hospitals and white hats.

Read up on Syria and Russia.

Its been documented for years.

Strong Agree.

Ijsbear · 10/03/2022 11:54

[quote elephantmarchingin]@BeckyWithTheGoodHair010101 It's true that propaganda is from both sides. The death and wounded count was extremely low for a 'fully operational' hospital that was blown up! Also in terms of Chernobyl the IAEA said it would pretty much be ok whereas Ukraine have disagreed and said it is a disaster waiting to happen.

However Russia is keen to try and 'justify' its actions and will use as much propaganda back!

It's such a thin line and things can be exaggerated both sides it is important to remember that BUT Russia is still wrong! [/quote]
It seems unlikely that the dead and wounded are accurately tallied up.

Possibly more were in the basement, which would fit with Zelensky saying there are children buried in the rubble. But I suspect no one actually knows atm.

TiddyTidTwo · 10/03/2022 12:04

Can someone explain why the EU have done this and why now? And is it really true?

twitter.com/euroguido/status/1501854130016563200?s=21

WeAreTheHeroes · 10/03/2022 12:08

It's interesting that some of the western companies closing their operations in Russia are saying they are closing temporarily rather than pulling out altogether. I read a link upthread from a Russian publication which stated that the Russian govt was seizing the property left in Russia of companies that had pulled out.

BeckyWithTheGoodHair010101 · 10/03/2022 12:15

@EsmaCannonball

Can't believe people on here watched Lavrov and thought, 'Hmm, he may have a point.' I really think the current situation merits Mumsnet HQ launching an investigation into the possibility of bots. Too much suspicious activity on Ukraine threads. Too many threads with innocuous titles like 'Why Can't People in the UK Have Different Opinions Anymore?' where, a few posts in, the OP links to John Pilger articles. Too many posters linking to disinformation or debunked claims.
If you're referring to my question earlier, I didn't say I thought Lavrov had a point - I asked if it was true about Azov and if there was propaganda on both sides. Just wanted to clarify that. My personal opinion is that he and Putin are cunts of the highest order and I hope someone kills them both sooner rather than later. I'm definitely not a bot but do feel free to report my posts and get MNHQ to check.
notimagain · 10/03/2022 12:16

@Tuba437

I wouldn't say propaganda from Ukraine, however they are desperate (quite rightly so ) for the west to intervene. So may exaggerate slightly. Doesn't make the attacks any less awful.

Agree with that.

It was interesting to see how quickly the (absolutely horrendous) attack was being claimed as being down to an airstrike. TBF some news agencies/media outlets were pointing out, in least in early reports, that that could not be independently verified.

Natsku · 10/03/2022 12:20

[quote TiddyTidTwo]Can someone explain why the EU have done this and why now? And is it really true?

twitter.com/euroguido/status/1501854130016563200?s=21[/quote]
They voted to block funds to countries that don't follow the rule of law, even during wartime. Not sure what the issue with that is? I don't know anything about the wider context here.

RedToothBrush · 10/03/2022 12:20

Alexander Gabuev 陳寒士*@AlexGabuev*
Two weeks ago, as Vladimir Putin was declaring his vicious war on Ukraine, he called the West an "Empire of Lies." In fact, the Kremlin's disastrous move was itself rooted in lies, misconceptions and giant lapses of expertise & intelligence. 1/

^2/ Historians will know more about the decision-making process behind the tragic events. To date, this essay by @andrewsweiss
& @eugene_rumer best captures Putin's motivation for going into this war. Unfortunately, it turned out to be prophetic.^
carnegieendowment.org/2021/11/12/ukraine-putin-s-unfinished-business-pub-85771

3/ War preparation was conducted in high secrecy in order to avoid leaks. Instead of a rigorous interagency process, the whole war planning was reduced to a clandestine operation developed by just a handful of people in uniform and the president himself.
www.economist.com/by-invitation/2022/02/19/alexander-gabuev-writes-from-moscow-on-why-vladimir-putin-and-his-entourage-want-war

3a/ Side note: given the secrecy, accuracy of US intelligence community's predictions (even the public part of it spread through media and official statements) deserves credit, and explains why USG was so reluctant to share sensitive details that could endanger sources & methods.

4/ It looks like even during the planning of the military campaign, there weren't enough generals able to ask "what if" questions that could help to do serious contingency planning and get ready for other scenarios than just a speedy victory of the Russian troops.

5/ Needless to say, the preparation to the Western sanctions response was even more flawed since Putin has kept his economic team entirely in the dark. This @FT piece by @maxseddon & @polinaivanovva accurately captures relaxed mood before the invasion.
www.ft.com/content/a2eaba73-cec8-4a0f-b991-7de558bb0ee1

6/ Since 2014 various "sanctions task forces" in the Russian government (first led by Igor Shuvalov, then by Anton Siluanov & Andrey Belousov) claimed that they have looked into all possible sanctions scenarios, including Iran & North Korea, and did contingency planning accordingly.

7/ It appears that Putin and his war cabinet have developed a false sense of security by the mere existence of these counter-sanctions plans. Nobody did a proper sanity check, while the economic team looked at doomsdays scenarios as "high impact & nearly zero probability."

8/ Vested interest around import-substitution (think Sergey Chemezov etc.) might be another factor explaining why Putin was lulled by the narrative that Russian economy is nearly sanctions-proof, and all it takes is just throwing some more money to fix a few outstanding issues.

9/ As a result, neither the war plan, nor the plan to address the economic fallout of possible Western sanctions was rigorously discussed and carefully vetted. The decision has never been run through a "Slepakov test," to use Russian officials' slang.

10/ The other element of Putin calamitous decision to go to war was a long-standing paradox of the Russian foreign policy: the Kremlin has a more nuanced understanding of China or the Arab World than of its closest neighbors in the post-Soviet space, especially Ukraine.

11/ The reasons are many. To start with, the Russian Empire has never perceived Ukraine as a "colony," and thus has never developed a discipline to study Ukraine as "the Other." When Putin wrote that Russians and Ukrainians are "one people," he actually meant it.

12/ These problematic assumption has led to a giant flaw in the Kremlin's understanding of Ukraine. Hence Russian diplomats & spies who didn't bother to learn the language or study the culture, and policymakers operating on stereotypes.

13/ Back in 2014 my former @kommersant colleague Liza Surnacheva (@Schroeding) & I have looked into 🇷🇺 chain of command dealing with fallout of Maidan, and didn't find a single decision-maker with a sophisticated expertise on Ukraine.
kommersant.ru/doc/2416461

^14/ The level of Ukraine expertise in Russia documented by @Schroeding in 2014 was terrifying, and it hasn't improved since. If anything, it only got worse. kommersant.ru/doc/2470379^

15/ Clandestine nature of Putin's decision-making on national security and deplorable state of Russian expertise on Ukraine were among factors contributing to ruinous decision to start this ugly war - a tragedy for Ukraine, and a catastrophe for Russia.

Bunker Group Think removed from reality.

holliem91 · 10/03/2022 12:23

At this point I don't see which would be worse... Putin winning or loosing?

Can someone help me out here?

Him winning could just be the start of it all but him loosing could mean he feels he has nothing left to loose, add the sanctions on top of that and his words were "there can not be a world without Russia".

TiddyTidTwo · 10/03/2022 12:26

They voted to block funds to countries that don't follow the rule of law, even during wartime. Not sure what the issue with that is? I don't know anything about the wider context here

it's during the current crisis I don't understand. Poland have taken over a million refugees from Ukraine and surely this makes for good reading for Putin?

Natsku · 10/03/2022 12:28

I mean I don't know what the wider context to this is i.e. what rule of law are they not following which will cause them to not get funds, but perhaps they made this decision to prevent a slippery slope of rule breaking, and to force Poland and Hungary to follow the rule of law?

shreddednips · 10/03/2022 12:30

@holliem91

At this point I don't see which would be worse... Putin winning or loosing?

Can someone help me out here?

Him winning could just be the start of it all but him loosing could mean he feels he has nothing left to loose, add the sanctions on top of that and his words were "there can not be a world without Russia".

I don't know the answer to this question, but I suppose there would still be Russia even if he doesn't prevail in Ukraine. An impoverished Russia, but there's no existential threat to his country. Nobody is going to invade or destroy Russia or attempt to force regime change (unless he started a war with NATO.)
TiddyTidTwo · 10/03/2022 12:32

Oh I see, yes perhaps. I'm just concerned for Poland. They offered their MIGs, taken in majority of Ukrainians so it feels to me like they're being exposed to Putin a bit.

Just my initial rambling thoughts.

Tuba437 · 10/03/2022 12:40

For those on here that are clearly anxious about nuclear war. Lavrov even stated today he doesn't think it will lead to anything nuclear. I know he obviously not trustworthy but hopefully it might bring a small bit of comfort to those who are worried.

To me it doesn't seem at present that both Nato and Russia have a clear line of them not wanting us to get involved and us having no intentions of getting involved.

From reading earlier Lavrov also stated he couldn't make any decisions as negotiations were happening with the teams on the Belarus border hence why a ceasefire wasn't discussed today.

MagicFox · 10/03/2022 12:45

Gosh look at this article published by Al Jazeera just before the invasion. It feels so odd reading this now: www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/21/why-ukrainians-dont-believe-in-war-with-russia-distrust-west

Jisforjelly · 10/03/2022 12:47

@Tuba437

To me it doesn't seem at present that both Nato and Russia have a clear line of them not wanting us to get involved and us having no intentions of getting involve

Do you mean does here instead of doesn’t?

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