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Ukraine invasion discussion thread part 11

999 replies

ScatteredMama82 · 09/03/2022 15:43

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4499310-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-10?pg=40

OP posts:
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9
TokyoSushi · 10/03/2022 10:39

@RedToothBrush

Sam Wallace *@samwallacetel* 'Russia Regulations' license also prohibits Chelsea spending more than £20,000 on any away game travel, which asks serious questions of Champions League logistics, starting with Lille away next Wednesday
I used to work in a hotel that had a lot of football team traffic, the bills would be £8/£10K per stay, including staff etc they usually take about 25 rooms plus lots of meals & meeting rooms. It's not cheap.
EsmaCannonball · 10/03/2022 10:41

On the point of the Azov Battalion and supposed Ukrainians neo-Nazis, Aubrey Belford, one of the anti-corruption journalists who produced the Pandora Papers report which, amongst other things, discovered Zelenskyy's offshore wealth (and Jackie Chan's - maybe he should become the political leader of Hong Kong) has categorically refuted Russian bot claims that Zelenskyy has links to Azov or neo-Nazis. He, and other anti-corruption journalists, have explained that Ukraine's problems with neo-Nazis were linked to corruption and being a Russian puppet state and that since Russian interference has been driven out of the country and more progressive politicians, like Zelenskyy, have taken over, the neo-Nazi problem has actually been declining.

On the other hand neo-Nazism in Russia is on the rise. Russians reacting to Western companies now boycotting Russia have been talking about 'purifying' the Russian economy and building 'Greater Russia.' Did anyone see the footage of young people wearing the Z emblem, chanting and saluting at a shopping mall in Kazan? Most of them looked unenthusiastic but the Kremlin is obviously trying to generate a nationalistic movement.

TokyoSushi · 10/03/2022 10:42

Lots going on today!

Ukrainians with passports will be able to apply for UK visas entirely online from Tuesday, Priti Patel has said.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60686254

EsmaCannonball · 10/03/2022 10:48

Let's hope Lille has a Premier Inn and a Bella Italia that takes Tesco Clubcard vouchers.

MarshaBradyo · 10/03/2022 10:49

As the military expert chap on QT said last night, war is unpredictable. Wars have a habit of going in directions that are unexpected, of having unintended consequences. IMHO this is why cool heads must prevailand we must not escalate this war unless there is no other choice.

This is where I’m at too. I understand the impulse to draw comparisons but people who have the intelligence will be staying cool on this.

1dayatatime · 10/03/2022 10:49

@Memememememwmwm

This video link is also eye opening, the pertinent bit being at 4 minutes in on this 5 minute video.

Ijsbear · 10/03/2022 10:52

[quote prettybird]**@Ijsbear* - re the transatlantic cables, I used to work in that industry (organising capacity to the landing stations). It's a long time since I was doing that (over a decade) but even then there was a plethora* of massive capacity cables (being upgraded all the time) across the Atlantic from North America going via France, Ireland, UK, Greenland, Iceland and the Faroe Islands (and from them on to Scotland and Denmark).

Given the geographic distribution of all those cables and their landing stations, it would be a massive exercise to "cut off the internet" by cutting the cables. I'd suggest that a cyberattack would be "easier".

There is also back-up capacity on satellites. [/quote]
Well that's good to hear! I knew the satellites could keep the skeleton of the net going, but didn't realise there were so many many undersea cables now

BeckyWithTheGoodHair010101 · 10/03/2022 10:52

Lavrov is saying that the maternity hospital had been taken over by Azov on 7th March and had no patients.
Whilst I would like to think he is a lying bastard - are we being played with Ukrainian propaganda also?

1dayatatime · 10/03/2022 10:53

@MarshaBradyo

"This is where I’m at too. I understand the impulse to draw comparisons but people who have the intelligence will be staying cool on this."

+++

I am in full agreement with you on the need for cool heads here and also agree that military intelligence on all sides will be pushing this cool headed approach.

My concern here is the quality of senior politicians again both in Putin and the West on whether they will follow the cool headed advice.

1dayatatime · 10/03/2022 10:55

@BeckyWithTheGoodHair010101

Lavrov is saying that the maternity hospital had been taken over by Azov on 7th March and had no patients. Whilst I would like to think he is a lying bastard - are we being played with Ukrainian propaganda also?
The first casualty of war is always the truth. Whilst I cannot comment on the maternity hospital bombing, I am under no illusion that there are lies on both sides.
RedToothBrush · 10/03/2022 10:55

www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/reexamining-putins-military-interventions-in-the-middle-east
Reëxamining Putin’s Military Interventions in the Middle East
Can Russia’s conduct in Syria and Libya predict what’s in store for Ukraine?

Interview with Anand Gopal, a contributing writer at The New Yorker, who has written extensively about the Syrian civil war

Some interesting extracts from the above article.

What else do you now see as their actual goals?

Well, it was clear that their first goal was to shore up the Assad regime, and shoring it up against what they viewed, I think, was the gravest threat to the regime, which wasn’t the jihadists but that democratic opposition. That’s why they directed the vast majority of their firepower against the democratic opposition. Since then, I think the aim was to end the war and then, two, to take advantage of the postwar environment. In particular, they were hoping to secure reconstruction contracts. So one of the things that Russia has wanted is to end the sanctions regime against Syria, and it was hoping to attract Western reconstruction money, which Russian companies would be in a favorable position to capitalize on.

In terms of the way the Russians fought the war, my sense of it is that they were effective fairly quickly in turning the tide of the war. Is that your sense, too? What was the sense on the ground in Syria of the quality of the Russian military operation?

Yeah, it was clear very quickly that it was a game changer. First, it was primarily because of Russia that the regime was able to retake all of Aleppo and then also was able to retake areas in the Damascus countryside that had been opposition strongholds. And they did this primarily through overwhelming air power. So their campaign in Syria was largely an air campaign. We think there were, and still are, thousands of Russian soldiers on the ground, but they weren’t really leading the fight. It was the Syrian regime conscripts that were leading the fight on the ground, but it was Russian air power that really changed the game. And they wielded their air power both in a more technologically sophisticated way than the Syrian regime and in a devastating way, where they were targeting not just rebel positions but markets, hospitals, schools, with, in many cases, huge civilian casualties in their attacks.

And

So it was part of the Russian strategy—to attack hospitals. And that was, I think, partly to break the morale of not just the rebel movement but the population. And also, of course, if you are fighting a war against an enemy and you destroy their health centers, then you make it difficult for them to reproduce themselves on the battlefield. So it got to a point where people in Idlib had to put their clinics literally underground. I saw hospitals that were underground because the Russians would target anything that looked like a humanitarian center or a hospital

How much do you think the success of Russia was connected to its brutality? Was the reason that it was able to be successful partly that it was willing to do these things and had air power? Or was there something else about the Russian intervention that you think made it kind of strategically valuable?

I think it really did come down to air power, and overwhelming air power. They had more than twenty thousand air strikes. This is an overwhelming amount of firepower that’s being brought to bear. And they’re not unique in this. This is the reason the United States was able to defeat isis, as well. The U.S. strategy and the Russian strategy are very similar: they are heavily reliant on air power with a small number of troops on the ground. And, in both cases, they were able to turn the tide against their respective enemies. It’s important to say that they were up against irregular forces, untrained forces, guerillas. It’s a very different question if we’re talking about facing a professional army equipped with anti-aircraft weaponry and an air force.

And

Circumstances are quite different here with Ukraine. You have a state that has air power. It has anti-aircraft weaponry, which is something the Syrians never had. Its war chest is much fuller than anything the Syrian rebels ever had. It’s almost a difference in kind in terms of the type of enemy that they’re facing now. So, I think, that probably accounts for the difference more than anything else.

And

And Russian-Iranian rivalry is increasing, because there’s a kind of scramble for the spoils after the war in terms of postwar reconstruction, in terms of contracts to exploit mineral resources, et cetera. Russia is supporting Rami Makhlouf, who is the richest man in Syria. He’s a magnate of the telecom industry. He used to be very close to Assad and has recently been pushed aside. And that’s seen by a lot of observers as the Iranians trying to move against some of the big businessmen of the regime to try to push their own guys in.

And

Russia intervened in Libya, as well, and was effectively arrayed against Turkish-backed forces, and they didn’t acquit themselves well on the battlefield there. So it seems to me that the Russians are not in as strong of a position as they would’ve hoped going into these interventions.

Few things for me here:
They are already somewhat tied up in Syria still - and also have rivalry with Iran over post war influence and economics there. (Nuclear Deal with Iran relevancy here)

Whilst West haven't gone for a no fly zone (part of the argument for this is they actually have had questionable effectiveness and don't address the problem of rockets/missiles. This is more of an issue if you can launch these from Belarus or Russia themselves. Discussions about No fly zones ignore this issue) they have certainly focused on trying to take out air attacks and the Russian haven't got air supremacy. The weapons the British have deployed have focused on this issue.

I think you have to ask a lot of questions about air supremacy still.

And again there is the point about deliberate targetting of humanitarian needs as a strategy. That is going to make any relief or humanitarian efforts nearly impossible.

RedToothBrush · 10/03/2022 10:56

Also purposes of involvement were anti-democracy motivations and financial interests of Russian mafia organisations.

Keep that in mind. Its not about NATO.

RedToothBrush · 10/03/2022 10:58

@BeckyWithTheGoodHair010101

Lavrov is saying that the maternity hospital had been taken over by Azov on 7th March and had no patients. Whilst I would like to think he is a lying bastard - are we being played with Ukrainian propaganda also?
Bullshit.

Its amazing how Russian missiles in Syria just found hospitals and white hats.

Read up on Syria and Russia.

Its been documented for years.

Ijsbear · 10/03/2022 10:59

[quote TokyoSushi]Lots going on today!

Ukrainians with passports will be able to apply for UK visas entirely online from Tuesday, Priti Patel has said.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60686254[/quote]
And what happens if they have literally only the clothes they are wearing?

what a piss artist she is. What an absolute fucking pissartist.

ClaudineClare · 10/03/2022 11:00

1dayatatime "blundering into nuclear war"...that is exactly what must be prevented. Thanks for posting that video.

Alwayscheerful · 10/03/2022 11:01

@BeckyWithTheGoodHair010101

Lavrov is saying that the maternity hospital had been taken over by Azov on 7th March and had no patients. Whilst I would like to think he is a lying bastard - are we being played with Ukrainian propaganda also?
This cannot be true, news footage showed a pregnant woman, full term or in Labour, injured on a stretcher.
BringBackCoffeeCreams · 10/03/2022 11:01

@BeckyWithTheGoodHair010101

Lavrov is saying that the maternity hospital had been taken over by Azov on 7th March and had no patients. Whilst I would like to think he is a lying bastard - are we being played with Ukrainian propaganda also?
Yep, we're being played. The injured, heavily pregnant women being carried away from the site were actually soldiers in cunning disguises.
RedToothBrush · 10/03/2022 11:02

Tim White @TWMCltd
Taking it mile by mile, but a genuine humanitarian convoy is slowly making its way from Zaporizhzhia to #Mariupol'

^Many problems and hold ups along the way, but still making progress right now.
#SaveUkraine^

I think i have some hope these will get through actually.

The Russians will want something for Russian TV.

Don't fancy chances of many more similar ones though.

MarshaBradyo · 10/03/2022 11:03

[quote 1dayatatime]@MarshaBradyo

"This is where I’m at too. I understand the impulse to draw comparisons but people who have the intelligence will be staying cool on this."

+++

I am in full agreement with you on the need for cool heads here and also agree that military intelligence on all sides will be pushing this cool headed approach.

My concern here is the quality of senior politicians again both in Putin and the West on whether they will follow the cool headed advice.[/quote]
I haven’t followed it fully but my impression is US and Blinken are useful and leading. Geographical distance and strength probably help but on the planes issue US stepped back. We are too small to not need them so if they stay calm that’s helpful.

RedToothBrush · 10/03/2022 11:06

Also.

The Russians have just said they DID deliberately target a hospital.

In terms of humanity, you don't target somewhere if you think human shields are being used.

They are admitting they regard hospitals as a legitimate target.

BeckyWithTheGoodHair010101 · 10/03/2022 11:07

@Alwayscheerful I saw that footage too. How on Earth do they expect us all to believe this. I'm so furious.

Gingerwarthog · 10/03/2022 11:08

@BeckyWithTheGoodHair010101
Please read what the White Helmets have been saying for years about Russians targeting infrastructure such as hospitals as part of their calculated military strategy.

BeckyWithTheGoodHair010101 · 10/03/2022 11:08

Wow - got piled upon slightly - it was a genuine question I wasn't trying to take Russia's side here. Probably should step away from these threads.

DuncinToffee · 10/03/2022 11:10

Adam Flemming

BIG CHANGE. From Tuesday the Ukrainian visa scheme will be DIGITAL for those with passports and ID cards. So only complex or vulnerable cases will have have to go to visa application centres in Europe. This has been agreed with the security services. (1)
So an applicant will apply online, get an email authorising their travel, get a stamp in their passport when they arrive in the UK and then give their biometrics later at a VAC in the UK. (2)
This frees up capacity and crucially allows people to do the whole process in Ukraine before they leave. (3)
twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1501864134601756674?s=21

WhathaveIdoneagain · 10/03/2022 11:10

@TokyoSushi

A very trivial Chelsea point, but do season ticket holders have to buy away tickets? So if they can't sell tickets, then they won't have any away fans?
Not selling tickets is breaking their Premier League licence. All teams should make a certain number of tickets for their home games available for away fans. I guess those tickets will be free.