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Ukraine invasion discussion thread part 11

999 replies

ScatteredMama82 · 09/03/2022 15:43

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4499310-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-10?pg=40

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
TiddyTidTwo · 09/03/2022 22:52

"This is leaving out the fishermen who were (rightly) annoyed by the threat of interference in their catch"

And those Irish fisherman bloody weren't having it!

time4anothername · 09/03/2022 22:52

@ClaudineClare

I'm starting to wonder if the stunningly cruel and depraved act of dropping Middle Eastern asylum seekers into the Belorussian forests to fight with border guards or die this winter was also a preparation for them to have more fuel for their whataboutery

@time4anothername could you please explain more about this, I don't understand? Did this really happen?

Absolutely, it was on the news a lot in the run up to Christmas, particularly Channel 4 news. It horrified me to see people being used as bait in this way. True psychopathic cruelty.

The threat www.theweek.co.uk/news/world-news/europe/952979/belarus-dictator-threatens-flood-eu-with-drugs-migrants-avoid-sanctions

Some of the coverage
www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/13/far-from-the-border-forest-minsk-and-moscow-dictate-refugees-fate

www.politico.eu/article/tale-syrian-migrant-poland-forest-belarus-lukashenko-asylum-border/

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 22:54

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning of Putin trying to provoke a war with NATO.

Thats cos there isn't any reasoning. Its nonsense.
If he wants a full scale traditional war with NATO he'll just have one.
Its not like he hasn't made up pretexts before.

I also laugh a lot at the idea that he'll get pissy at mercenary soliders. Everyone's used them for years and everyone knows everyone else has been using them for years.

Anyway, did anyone pick up on the detail surrounding the death of Russian Major General Vitaly Gerasimov?
www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/08/vitaly-gerasimov-second-russian-general-killed-ukraine-defence-ministry-claims

The ministry also broadcast what it claimed was a conversation between two Russian FSB officers discussing the death and complaining that their secure communications were no longer functioning inside Ukraine.

The investigative journalism agency Bellingcat said it had confirmed Gerasimov’s death with a Russian source. Its executive director, Christo Grozev, said they had also identified the senior FSB officer in the intercepted conversation.

and

“In the call, you hear the Ukraine-based FSB officer ask his boss if he can talk via the secure Era system. The boss says Era is not working,” Grozev said on Twitter. “Era is a super expensive cryptophone system that [Russia’s defence ministry] introduced in 2021 with great fanfare. It guaranteed [to] work ‘in all conditions’.”

Except it seems these ones:

Christo Grozev @christogrozev
The idiots tried to use the Era cryptophones in Kharkiv, after destroying many 3g cell towers and also replacing others with stingrays. Era needs 3g/4g to communicate.
The Russian army is equipped with secure phones that can't work in areas where the Russian army operates.

Era phones were a response to an order by Putin that Russian Military couldn't use foreign smartphones because they were insecure.

That thread about nerds v the mafia really resonants here...

AbsentmindedWoman · 09/03/2022 22:56

@TiddyTidTwo

"This is leaving out the fishermen who were (rightly) annoyed by the threat of interference in their catch"

And those Irish fisherman bloody weren't having it!

Grin

I mean they did a great job, but it was still surreal to see career fishermen suddenly thrust into the role of diplomats!

But that was all part of the little psychological game.

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 22:57

Also. Someone is doing some really good survelliance here...

youhadmeatjello · 09/03/2022 23:11

What do you mean @red

TheSillyMastiff · 09/03/2022 23:12

I think this is the most aggressive and pro war these threads have been, and I've been here since thread 1.

As I sit here this evening, I can't help but feel a little lost in all this right now.

Do we really want to risk the chance of direct conflict with Russia? Do we want to see a RAF jet shot down, do we really want to see russian jets carpet bomb Europe?

No.

But do we really want to see the continued horrific assault on Ukraine, women, children and children killed, men dying daily to simply defend their country?

No.

It's such a moral dilemma isn't it, do you roll the dice and take the risk, do you gamble the security and lives of hundreds of millions.

There has never been such a high stakes poker game has there, do we call that bluff and hope we come out on top?

I for one am glad I am nowhere near the table on this game of cards.

I just feel lost.

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 23:15

Kaya Burgess @kayaburgess
A 90-year-old survivor of both the Holocaust and the Great Famine in 1930s Ukraine (which some say the Soviets caused deliberately) is now living in makeshift accommodation in Poland, having fled her country

Her granddaughter in UK is desperate to bring her to Britain but can't

Damn those pesky Russia Hitmen trying to get into the UK by posing as Ukrainian refugees.

(Apparently this lady's visa application has been scaled up and she should get hers in the next 24hours after this tweet was made)

Verysadatwork · 09/03/2022 23:17

“It seems to me that China is more keen on appeasing Putin than courting the West

You know all those threads where everyone declares the OP has a DH problem rather than a MIL/SIL etc problem ? That's what China is facing with Putin, I don't know what the Chinese is for ODFOD but I bet they are close.”

Verysadatwork · 09/03/2022 23:18

Just felt that needed quoting...

Maze76 · 09/03/2022 23:18

@Papertyger

He was happily welcomed as a player after chemically bombing Syria. There have been many points where he should never been allowed to set foot in the democratic world.
Yeah.. and we all know why that was
Verysadatwork · 09/03/2022 23:19

Have you guys covered Mrs Zelenskya’s letter?:

mpsw · 09/03/2022 23:29

I can understand why so many posters are feeling that it's time for NATO to step in, today's attack on the maternity hospital was an act so completely barbaric that it defies belief

It was shelled, wasn't it? Those are area weapons, not targeted ones. So when they fire a bunch of them into a city, they dont know exactly where they will land. They may not have been targeting the hospital - just reckless as to what in the city the shells landed on.

It's similar to the atrocious attack on the market place in Sarajevo - with some saying it must have been a Bosnian provication because you can't shell that accurately, and others saying it was still done by the besieging forces because although they can't have aimed an individual shot, they were firing into the city and it's not surprising that one of them came down there

CPL593H · 09/03/2022 23:32

@TheSillyMastiff

I think this is the most aggressive and pro war these threads have been, and I've been here since thread 1.

As I sit here this evening, I can't help but feel a little lost in all this right now.

Do we really want to risk the chance of direct conflict with Russia? Do we want to see a RAF jet shot down, do we really want to see russian jets carpet bomb Europe?

No.

But do we really want to see the continued horrific assault on Ukraine, women, children and children killed, men dying daily to simply defend their country?

No.

It's such a moral dilemma isn't it, do you roll the dice and take the risk, do you gamble the security and lives of hundreds of millions.

There has never been such a high stakes poker game has there, do we call that bluff and hope we come out on top?

I for one am glad I am nowhere near the table on this game of cards.

I just feel lost.

I understand. I feel by turns horrified, angry, powerless, incredulous and yeah, a bit scared at times.

Sorry, it doesn't add to the debate, but damn Putin to Hell for this.

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 23:32

@TheSillyMastiff

I think this is the most aggressive and pro war these threads have been, and I've been here since thread 1.

As I sit here this evening, I can't help but feel a little lost in all this right now.

Do we really want to risk the chance of direct conflict with Russia? Do we want to see a RAF jet shot down, do we really want to see russian jets carpet bomb Europe?

No.

But do we really want to see the continued horrific assault on Ukraine, women, children and children killed, men dying daily to simply defend their country?

No.

It's such a moral dilemma isn't it, do you roll the dice and take the risk, do you gamble the security and lives of hundreds of millions.

There has never been such a high stakes poker game has there, do we call that bluff and hope we come out on top?

I for one am glad I am nowhere near the table on this game of cards.

I just feel lost.

Think about this:

Before the conflict started, how do you think the West thought this would play out in terms of lives lost/western security?

Then after about day 2/3 how do you think they recalculated it?

The West are well aware of how Russia has been in other places around the world in recent years. There's been talk that we've been in a proxy war with Russia for a number of years. Certainly I have followed a couple of people on twitter who have been saying this for a long, long, long time. Particularly with reference to Syria.

The article on the White Hats and the advice about hospitals was published BEFORE the attack today.

Many Western leaders (certainly Macron has said it explicitly) have said they feared the worst was still yet to come.

None of this is coming as a surprise to them. It is to the public though.

On day 14, theres been no shift. Its playing out as Western governments have thought it might since about Day 2/3.

I think the public waking up, is perhaps overdue. Without it, governments can't act anyway because there would be no support for it, and the whole thing would fall apart anyway.

In that sense, the West can't intervene until the public mood is heightened to a certain point of horror (not anywhere near that point yet btw folks) or there is a clear undeniable crossing of the line that can't just sort of disappear or be denied like the Skripal affair or people with an unfortunate pattern of falling out of windows (obviously pushed by those toddler or nonagenarian Russia Hit Men).

The same kind of goes for Russia too. They will tolerate a certain amount of covert shit and supplies as long as we don't push our luck too much AND they have their hands full. Its not in their interests to declare war on a point of principle if they aren't at a point where they are ready for it.

We are stuck in this sort of staleman for a while yet.

1dayatatime · 09/03/2022 23:39

@TheSillyMastiff

"Do we really want to risk the chance of direct conflict with Russia? Do we want to see a RAF jet shot down, do we really want to see russian jets carpet bomb Europe?

No.

But do we really want to see the continued horrific assault on Ukraine, women, children and children killed, men dying daily to simply defend their country?

No.

It's such a moral dilemma isn't it, do you roll the dice and take the risk, do you gamble the security and lives of hundreds of millions. "

++++

I think you have neatly summarised it there.

The fear of and determination to stop this conflict escalating to involve NATO, Europe and god forbid nuclear/ chemical/ bio weapons does not mean that we don't care about Ukraine men, women and children.

There are other ways to help Ukrainians (asylum, aid to refugee camps, medical, food etc) other than just flying in weapons .

TiddyTidTwo · 09/03/2022 23:41

"It was shelled, wasn't it? Those are area weapons, not targeted ones. So when they fire a bunch of them into a city, they dont know exactly where they will land. They may not have been targeting the hospital - just reckless as to what in the city the shells landed on"

No excuse and in 2022 executable. It's not bows and arrows warfare anymore

And now the Whitehouse are strongly, very strongly hinting chemical weapons are about to be used. So.... my above point stands

ClaudineClare · 09/03/2022 23:41

@RedToothBrush

Also. Someone is doing some really good survelliance here...
What do you mean?
TiddyTidTwo · 09/03/2022 23:41

Inexcusable not executable *

Atourwitsend · 09/03/2022 23:42

Apparently the UN's atomic energy watchdog has lost contact with the remote data systems at Zaporizhzhya now as well as Chernobyl, not sure how this bodes.

TiddyTidTwo · 09/03/2022 23:43

Shit Atour. Source?

This now points to a plan. A back door nuclear plan at worst

Atourwitsend · 09/03/2022 23:47

bbc news

katem98 · 09/03/2022 23:48

@Atourwitsend

Apparently the UN's atomic energy watchdog has lost contact with the remote data systems at Zaporizhzhya now as well as Chernobyl, not sure how this bodes.
This is probably going to be used as leverage for tomorrows talks, right?
RedToothBrush · 10/03/2022 00:03

Ministry of Defence 🇬🇧@DefenceHQ ·
Latest Defence Intelligence update on the situation in Ukraine - 09 March 2022

Ukraine invasion discussion thread part 11
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