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Ukraine invasion discussion thread part 11

999 replies

ScatteredMama82 · 09/03/2022 15:43

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4499310-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-10?pg=40

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9
elephantmarchingin · 09/03/2022 21:35

[quote AgnesWestern]@elephantmarchingin nobody is thinking of the bigger picture here. Escalation will lead to more horror, involving more countries. And Ukraine will still be burning.[/quote]
Exactly a world war will solve nothing Ukraine will not get anymore help as we won't be sending them weapons.

Also a no fly zone works all ways so Ukraine couldn't fly either.

It's worrying that people think WW3 would be a good solution!

FacebookPhotos · 09/03/2022 21:36

You are 100% entitled to be as selfish as you like and not care about hospital bombings etc because they're happening far away but other people may have a touch more compassion and humanity than you.

Almost everyone is selfish. We didn’t rescue Syrians from destruction. We continue to trade with China despite their human rights abuses. We don’t live simple, cheap lives and donate our iPhone money to those who are starving to death in other countries. Or even accept paying slightly higher taxes to ensure children in the UK don’t go to bed cold and hungry.

Those of us who oppose NATO intervention aren’t lacking in humanity or compassion. We don’t care less than you about bombings of hospitals. We just disagree about how to minimise the total human suffering.

ClaudineClare · 09/03/2022 21:36

[quote elephantmarchingin]@mavisgreen read thread 10 last night where the tone was completely different to this evening.
[/quote]
I think the bombing of the hospital has sickened and angered many of us, that is why the tone is different to last night. I don't see anyone baying for war, though. Most people don't want us to go down that route.

MarshaBradyo · 09/03/2022 21:37

@TiddyTidTwo

"I'm not seeing any posts desperate for ww3"

Me neither. I am seeing a turn toward intervention due to the ongoing and worsening atrocities

How are you so certain Putin won’t escalate to extreme destruction?
Papertyger · 09/03/2022 21:38

Elephant.

Yesterday a maternity hospital hadn't been bombed.
This is Mumsnet.
It's a fast moving fluid situation, I'm but sewing the logic in your posts.

Agnes, to say this situation is horrific is an understatement.
I know I'm in shock. two weeks ago my life was pretty much getting back to normal, COVID is fading away (it seems), and I was looking forward to an Easter holiday, abroad for the first time in years.
Suddenly the unthinkable, illogical assault on a democratic country has occurred and we are neck deep in the dark.

Every morning I wake up as if every thing is normal and then I remember and I feel sick in the pit of my stomach.
It's a lot to bear and with small children especially our preservation instinct is buzzing.

I think having a break from this doom, even for one day might be helpful?
Check the news at the weekend? . give yourself a break.Flowers

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 09/03/2022 21:38

Exactly a world war will solve nothing Ukraine will not get anymore help as we won't be sending them weapons.

Setting aside all other issues, there will always be countries that are willing to sell and supply weapons in a conflict.

1dayatatime · 09/03/2022 21:38

@CurryandSnuggle

The latest attack on a maternity unit and children’s hospital makes me sick. This is so disgraceful.

And the footage I saw the other day of a Russian tank deliberately driving over a civilian car (with civilian inside).

These are war crimes!!!

The fact check on the incident of the tank driving over the car is that it is unclear whether the tank was Russian or Ukrainian as both sides use this vehicle.

amp.usatoday.com/amp/6953727001

notimagain · 09/03/2022 21:38

@TheSillyMastiff

Thermobaric rockets have been used, but not the bombs. The rocket is still dreadful and it's collateral damage from indirect and explosive force is still barbaric and inhumane, but it's not the missile.

That’s not the distinction..if something is a thermobaric weapon then that describes the mechanism of the warhead.

The rocket/missile/bomb bit is just the delivery system the thermobaric bit is attached to…and without getting into whataboutery it’s maybe only fair to point some western forces have had thermobaric devices in their arsenals for some time.

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 21:40

Why the heck isn't Putin been charged with War Crimes against Humanity?

War Crimes are only a thing when you've comprehensively won/lost a war.

For that reason I find the constantly going on about it deeply unhelpful. And it only leads a narrative of but the US / NATO etc did X, Y and Z. Or why wasn't more done by the US / NATO / EU over Syria etc.

Thats not to say, I don't care. I just don't see the point in the conversation until we reach a position where anything is likely to be done. Which might be never tbh.

Plus I fear its going to get worse before it gets better.

Papertyger · 09/03/2022 21:40

Re the world war so who would join Putin's side?

hatebeak · 09/03/2022 21:41

The poster who wondered if we would be saying "but at least we did something!" as thermonuclear war breaks out makes a strong point. It's horrendous, it's appalling, compassion and humanity cannot go out of the window (and god the handling of refugees in the UK is shameful) - but there's no point in falling into Putin's world-destruction script. The hospital bombing etc, heartbreaking and awful though they are, feel like a way of trying to goad us into an involvement we could not escape from. We can't risk nuclear war. We just can't. Cool heads feel really cold right now, but there's no special compassion prize for taking a chance on wiping out everyone's children (and everything else).

AgnesWestern · 09/03/2022 21:42

@Papertyger you are right I think. It’s making me ill, I might have a day off reading about it tomorrow, but I always worry I’ll miss something important.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 09/03/2022 21:44

I didn't say China said it. I said they won't have a choice?

Really ???? Are you saying you think Russia could kick China's arse ? Let's be honest they have struggled to get a grip on a country a tiny fraction of the size of China ! China does have a choice and its choice is not Russia's to make.

BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation · 09/03/2022 21:44

He will use chemical weapons next. He will goad NATO into intervening. He's a monster.

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 21:45

apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-europe-venezuela-caracas-daae694f5984d418627cbb3cb1885c43
White House: Venezuela has freed 2 detained Americans

The Venezuelan government has freed two jailed Americans, including an oil executive imprisoned alongside colleagues for more than four years, as it seeks to improve relations with the Biden administration amid Russia’s war with Ukraine, the White House announced Tuesday night.

Interesting.

mavisgreen · 09/03/2022 21:45

Would far less people have died if there hadn't been a world war 2? Maybe? If Putin doesn't stop at Ukraine and invades Finland next, what then. How many millions will die before he starts to get a little too close to home? Nobody in their right mind wants a war but Putin clearly does. I have children too, but I don't think anyone can say that this won't end up being a conflict that is forced upon us regardless of how much we appease Putin now and it will all end up being too little too late for the Ukrainians.

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 09/03/2022 21:46

Putin is the one baying for war. It's totally normal for there to be a difference in opinion as to how we should respond. I agree with you AgnesWestern (you are actually very brave for admitting you aren't prepared to go to war) but I also agree with Tiddytidtwo that Putin needs to be stood up to. He is going to be a terrible threat (nuclear or otherwise) whilst he draws breath. If Putin thinks he can just hover over a red button every time he doesn't get his way then our future is bleak anyway.

elephantmarchingin · 09/03/2022 21:46

So you really think that if we went to war with Russia or the US went to war we wouldn't bomb them?

elephantmarchingin · 09/03/2022 21:46

As in bomb Russia

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 21:46

@Papertyger

Re the world war so who would join Putin's side?
Oh fgs this conversation is getting fucking ridicilous.

Stop hyperventaling.

elephantmarchingin · 09/03/2022 21:48

@Papertyger so when the US bombed an Afghan hospital in 2015 that was fine? It killed more than is being reported in Ukraine?

Why wasn't there calls for everyone to get involved then?

workisnotawolf · 09/03/2022 21:48

I don’t know if anyone has previously linked to this, but it is a fascinating read from March 2019 and pretty much sets the scene for what has happened. From the Institute of the Study of War (which also gives almost daily military updates).

www.understandingwar.org/sites/default/files/ISW%20Report_The%20Kremlin%27s%20Worldview_March%202019.pdf

An example from the full report:
“Putin’s seemingly facile and convenient rhetoric can be easy to dismiss as cynical. His rhetoric is not empty, however. It is a declaration of his key foreign principle, one that is at odds with the fundamental basis of the rules-based international order – namely, that only the mighty are truly sovereign .
It is also easy to imagine that miscommunication is the source of conflict between Putin’s Russia and the West. This idea is false. Bush, Obama, and Trump have all reached out to Putin, sought to accommodate his interests as they understood them, and tried to soften policies and language that might offend him. Yet the Kremlin has responded with increasingly resentful language and actions.” (…)

Putin does not trust statements from the White House. He views the U.S. as dismissive of Russia’s vital interests regardless of any changes in administrations or rhetoric. Putin fundamentally views the shape of the current international order as the primary challenge to his interests. He believes, as he has said over and over, that a global hegemony, by which he means a world order led by America, is unacceptable to Russia.
Putin is no mere opportunistic predator. He may not always have a clear plan and acts expediently at times, but he knows what kind of world he wants and, even more so, what kind he does not. He seeks a world without NATO, with the U.S. confined to the Western Hemisphere, with Russia dominant over the former Soviet Union and able to do what it likes to its own people without condemnation or oversight, and with the Kremlin enjoying a literal veto at the UN Security Council over actions that any other state wishes to take beyond its borders. He has been working towards such a world since the moment he took office. His most recent statements suggest that he thinks he is getting closer. If the West aims to avoid further strategic surprise and preserve the rule-based international order, it must understand this divergent worldview and accept that Putin, when it comes to his stated foreign policy goals and priorities, is often a man of his word.”

holliem91 · 09/03/2022 21:49

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

He will use chemical weapons next. He will goad NATO into intervening. He's a monster.
I can't remember if I read it on here or somewhere else so apologies if I'm repeating what someone else has already said...

The only reason I can think of why Putin would want to goad the west into war is so that he can turn to his own people (who he has closed off from everything) and say "see the west are evil, they attacked us!" to justify his reasons for this barbaric invasion. It makes sense. But still, that explanation does not explain to me why he would WANT to go to war with the west where everyone would loose.

OliviaBond · 09/03/2022 21:49

@BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation

He will use chemical weapons next. He will goad NATO into intervening. He's a monster.
I think this too. I think he wants war with the west and will push and push until we can no longer ignore it
Shuuu · 09/03/2022 21:49

Is there anyway to get Putin out of power? I understand he has an agreement to reign until 2032.

Do we think his inner circle will allow him to use extreme measures against Ukraine?

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