How are you explaining to your boys about only men being conscripted in Ukraine?

[MiniDaffodils]

I have both girls and boys. We have always brought them up to understand that whilst boys may be physically stronger, girls can undertake the same roles in anything as boys can.
My boys are upset at the thought that only men are being made to fight in Ukraine and not women. They think it’s very unfair.
I think they are imagining themselves in that same situation. Obviously I have explained in this country both men and women would be called up to fight. My boys are gentle souls and the thought of only men having to kill others is disturbing them.
My girls are relieved at the idea that women in Ukraine are not called to fight despite usually them being very vocal about the fact boys and girls are equal in all things.
My main question is how to explain this to my sons, rather than my daughters (who don’t seem as bothered by the issue).
Thanks

I don’t plan to explain this to my children. I saw a big debate about this on another thread, the fact is, for all the equality in the world, men are generally stronger physically. They don’t have to deal with, for eg, periods. That’s been on my mind far more than it should tbh, I’m having terrible flooding due to early peri menopause. The thought of having to flee with my 4 dc, including a toddler, while also dealing with that, just makes me boggle how these poor people are coping. I’d like to think if I were childless, I would stay and fight but thankfully that’s not a decision I’ve yet been called to make, and pray I’ll never have to.

Tell them the truth. Historically people had big families - so women had lots of babies, so for much of their adult lives women were either pregnant, breastfeeding or looking after small children. So sending women to fight didn’t make sense because those children and babies needed someone looking after them. Lots of countries haven’t changed their policy on this and conscripts are still just men. Countries that have changed their policy (like Israel) tend to ask both young men and women to do military service once they’ve finished high school but before they are likely to have settled down and started families.

The patriarchy.

If both men and women are all called up to fight, who is going to take on the caring responsibilities that women are still left with 90% of the time?

Your boys might be happy to do it but on a societal and worldwide scale it doesn’t happen.

Explain to them that biology means we're not equal in that respect and that there are many reasons why only men would be conscripted to fight in a war situation, physical strength being just one of them, there's also the issue of children - someone is needed to look after them/get them out of the country.

There's male conscription in my country (women can voluntarily join) but in a war situation everyone is responsible for national defence but doesn't mean everyone has to fight, national defence is so much more than that.

Don’t assume it would be women conscripted in this country too, but hopefully we’ll never find out.

I’d explain to my children that although women can do anything a man can do (other than be a father etc), there’s still the very real biological difference. Women are needed for survival of the population. Women are the only ones who would be pregnant or dealing with periods or breastfeeding. Women can be raped (ok men can be too but the potential rapist pool is smaller and the consequences - potential pregnancy- less severe at a population level).

So not a particularly nice topic of conversation. I’d just leave it and not discuss further, unless they are older teens.

I would probably talk about different roles, the women are having to look after their children while the men are fighting. If they don’t have kids many women are helping with other areas such as medical care and feeding the troops. I’m not sure it’s a good idea to focus on fairness, it’s just how it is.

Point out that lots of women are staying to fight. The ones leaving are with children etc.

If half a million men are killed there can still be as many babies born to replace them.
If half a million women are killed (probably would be more as they are physically slower and weaker) then fewer babies will be born.
Did you or your sons ever learn biology OP?

You can tell your sons that women won’t get off easily in a war. They will have to work hard and suffer just as much as the men, albeit the roles will polarise more.

I don’t get the angst really. ‘That’s what they do in Ukraine.’ Oh you don’t like it? Lucky you’re not Ukrainian then.

On the other hand I don’t support conscription…just saying it makes no sense to conscript women.

How old are your dc OP?

Looking at the videos showing women fleeing with their babies in snow and ice, to an unknown destination, not knowing how to feed their crying babies your dd and ds might feel differently. Most boys I know relish the idea of fighting . Imagine leaving your home on foot to flee from bombs while caring for a toddler.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10591973/FOUR-UK-squaddies-AWOL-fight-Ukraine-including-19-year-old-Queens-Guard.html#v-7014370268249145851

@ENoeuf

I don’t get the angst really. ‘That’s what they do in Ukraine.’ Oh you don’t like it? Lucky you’re not Ukrainian then.

Agree with this.

There’s a whole other thread that covers a lot of this.

The first thing is to tell them is that few people want to kill, but because there’s been an invasion, the government is conscripting as the UK did in WW2. And just as the UK then, the first priority is frontline fighters. If the war (god forbid) goes on, wider groups are likely to be conscripted, including women without kids.

Secondly, lot of women are staying to fight or support by running things like power stations. If they are mothers that means leaving to drop off their kids with relatives in neighbouring countries and coming back. The story of all women leaving is being over emphasised.

The reasons women are not conscripted for frontline frighting are:

• no one would want children to loose both parents
• women carry most caring responsibilities for older relatives also
• countries (and once upon a time tribes) need to prioritise the survival of young women, because they will carry the next generation. You just don’t need as many young men.

• some women are strong enough to pass eg US/UK Marine entry tests, but far fewer than men, so they aren’t as effective as front line troops
• countries that do conscript women tend to use them as support troops. This may well happen in Ukraine.
• women are vulnerable in a war zone because rape is used as a weapon of war (if you want to explain all this to them, you can’t avoid this). Rape is an effective weapon because it demoralises the whole community and makes a country easier to defeat. This means that women and men are concerned about women being in a war zone. (Just for your info Previous threads include an article stating that pornhub already has a section on the rape of Ukrainian girls, which appears to be footage uploaded by Russian troops. Also been reports that only 5 of the 11 women know about have survived it.)

• As the war develops we’ll hear a lot more about women who have stayed to help the war effort. Some of these women will be killing directly, others will do so indirectly by keeping infrastructure going, eg working power stations just as women in the UK did in WW2

Lots of UN reports explain how women’s economic and physical health is impacted more than men’s overall, because they are more vulnerable to the economic and social breakdown that comes before and after it. So women have a a very rough time in war, it’s just not visible in the same way.

Hope this helps

I have brought them up to think that periods shouldn’t hold any one back. That child rearing is shared equally between men and women (except for the first few months when the women is possibly breast feeding). Also that whilst men are physically stronger that isn’t necessarily a disadvantage in modern combat which relies more on weapons than brute strength.

I don’t feel comfortable saying that actually women can’t go onto the forces because they are physically weaker and have periods - I don’t think that it holds weight as an argument anymore.

I assumed as men and women are both serving in the forces now that both sexes would be conscripted if needed in this country.

There’s many, many reasons only men are conscripted.

Often due to socialised roles- women with caring responsibilities. Ask them if women went to fight, would men suddenly step up to childcare and domestic roles? Because still it is women than give up work and men who don’t share domestic chores.

Big one is lots of studies show men are so socialised into seeing women as “weaker” and needing to be protected, women on the frontlines are actually a hindrance as men don’t treat them as equals.

Tell them if they want to change things they have to make sure they do their share of the wifework when they grow up. If they want an equal society, women have fought for equality for years, now it’s mens turn to step up and take on responsibilities so women can be equal.

There are plenty of women who have signed up and there are lots of women, children and old people who are being killed. I'm not quite sure why male conscription is the main thing they are upset about, war affects everyone. Or are they thinking how it would affect them which is quite a self centred viewpoint.

"The thought of only men having to kill others is disturbing thfm"

Are you sure this is actually the crux of it and they'd be less disturbed if women also had to kill? This seems a bit twisted to be blunt.

I also have boys and girls. I understand that there might be feelings of unfairness but not that it'd be less disturbing if 18 year old women were also forced to kill. Being forced to do something horrific isn't less disturbing if your sister is forced too!

Obviously the use of rape as a weapon is one reason some countries don't conscript women. Another is that it's a "blunt instrument" to roughly ensure that the majority of children have a non combatant parent and similarly that the old and the ill and others needing care are not left to die when all their relatives are conscripted. Infrastructure still has to be maintained - areas not directly in the middle of combat zones need to continue functioning. There isn't time to filter who to concept using more subtle, "fair" algorithms when a brutal war starts suddenly.

I'm surprised by the number of MN posts indignant about the war being unfair on men - it actually seems disingenuous to me even though I empathise completely with the anguish of parents of older teen boys being one myself - sending girls too would do nothing to make losing boys better though, that's just twisted!

@Thereisnolight

If half a million men are killed there can still be as many babies born to replace them. If half a million women are killed (probably would be more as they are physically slower and weaker) then fewer babies will be born. Did you or your sons ever learn biology OP?

Yes OP. Tell them this.

@MiniDaffodils

I have brought them up to think that periods shouldn’t hold any one back. That child rearing is shared equally between men and women (except for the first few months when the women is possibly breast feeding). Also that whilst men are physically stronger that isn’t necessarily a disadvantage in modern combat which relies more on weapons than brute strength.

I don’t feel comfortable saying that actually women can’t go onto the forces because they are physically weaker and have periods - I don’t think that it holds weight as an argument anymore.

I assumed as men and women are both serving in the forces now that both sexes would be conscripted if needed in this country.

@MiniDaffodils Just read through the answers above and on the other thread.

There are perfectly good reasons why women aren’t conscripted as frontline troops. These reasons do not mean women don’t support the war effort or suffer because of it.

And they exist whether you feel comfortable with them or not - the world is a brutal place.

As children we often think that everyone lives just like we do. Gradually as we grow up we notice that some people live differently to us. Your children are learning that things are different in other countries. Life is often not fair, although we try to protect our children from the harsh realities of life, sometimes they need to learn about things like this. Maybe use it to explain how historically men and women have been treated differently and talk about why Ukraine are doing this.

I'm surprised by the number of MN posts indignant about the war being unfair on men - it actually seems disingenuous to me even though I empathise completely with the anguish of parents of older teen boys being one myself - sending girls too would do nothing to make losing boys better though, that's just twisted!

Exactly! I wonder how old Op's kids are and am surprised she'd want all her dc to be conscripted it's a bit unbelievable. On the other hand there are a lot of very pampered mummy's boys who probably just don't care about anything other than their gaming chair and next snack.

That child rearing is shared equally between men and women (except for the first few months when the women is possibly breast feeding)

You may have brought them up thinking that, but it isn’t true, is it?

Yes it should be shared, but we are still so mired in gender roles that a sahd or even pt dad is still incredibly rare. There’s a thread here and on twitter about how nurseries and schools always phone mum first, even if asked not to, even if mum is a bloody brain surgeon and has told them she cannot answer the phone. One lady even details how nursery left 13 messages, culminating with “we don’t want to have to phone your husband and inform him you weren’t available for your children”.

If your sons want equality in the army etc, men need to be stepping up in the workplace and at home to force changes. If they are so upset about gender roles, they need to think how they can change is for future generations. Women are working now, have careers, but men aren’t enabling that.

Also that whilst men are physically stronger that isn’t necessarily a disadvantage in modern combat which relies more on weapons than brute strength.

But there’s been hand-to-hand fighting in Ukraine.