How are you explaining to your boys about only men being conscripted in Ukraine?

[MiniDaffodils]

I have both girls and boys. We have always brought them up to understand that whilst boys may be physically stronger, girls can undertake the same roles in anything as boys can.
My boys are upset at the thought that only men are being made to fight in Ukraine and not women. They think it’s very unfair.
I think they are imagining themselves in that same situation. Obviously I have explained in this country both men and women would be called up to fight. My boys are gentle souls and the thought of only men having to kill others is disturbing them.
My girls are relieved at the idea that women in Ukraine are not called to fight despite usually them being very vocal about the fact boys and girls are equal in all things.
My main question is how to explain this to my sons, rather than my daughters (who don’t seem as bothered by the issue).
Thanks

I'll be explaining to my DSs thank fuck we don't live in Ukraine.

Don't think there's any explanation needed.

The older men are generally riddled with injuries and age-related vulnerabilities

At 60? Well that’s combat sports perhaps. I doubt your 30 yo women are typical either. If we’re discussing averages, I still think your average 60 yo man is more physically able than your 30 yo woman.

@borntobequiet

The older men are generally riddled with injuries and age-related vulnerabilities

At 60? Well that’s combat sports perhaps. I doubt your 30 yo women are typical either. If we’re discussing averages, I still think your average 60 yo man is more physically able than your 30 yo woman.

As it happens, and there's nothing like a personal anecdote to prove a point, I know...when I was 30 I had a brief "thing" with a man of 60 (don't judge me, we both needed it and it was all above board). I was in pretty good shape and a 4x a week gym goer with a weights routine. He was a bit overweight with a couple of minor health issues and groaned whenever he got up from the couch.

He could flatten me easily. We had a couple of play fights and he won them in seconds. I had absolutely no chance. He could also pick me up without any trouble. I definitely could not lift him.

What a load of MRA bollocks

@GilesRupert

What a load of MRA bollocks

Exactly what I was thinking, there is no way the OP is a concerned mother of boys and girls.

@Nomoreusernames1244

That child rearing is shared equally between men and women (except for the first few months when the women is possibly breast feeding)

You may have brought them up thinking that, but it isn’t true, is it?

Yes it should be shared, but we are still so mired in gender roles that a sahd or even pt dad is still incredibly rare. There’s a thread here and on twitter about how nurseries and schools always phone mum first, even if asked not to, even if mum is a bloody brain surgeon and has told them she cannot answer the phone. One lady even details how nursery left 13 messages, culminating with “we don’t want to have to phone your husband and inform him you weren’t available for your children”.

If your sons want equality in the army etc, men need to be stepping up in the workplace and at home to force changes. If they are so upset about gender roles, they need to think how they can change is for future generations. Women are working now, have careers, but men aren’t enabling that.

But isn't that what she is doing? By changing her sons mindset that they should/will have shared care with mum when their time comes to have children? You saying they need to step up in the work place and at home is exactly what the op is trying to teach her sons. But that's wrong to you because it isn't true? But also she should be teaching them this, (which she is)? Your post makes no sense and contradictory.

@Twicklette

How I hate on MN that whatever the discussion, in this case brave Ukrainian men fighting to defend their country, some posters jump in to use their favourite term of abuse for men, 'Mummy's boy' for any young man that questions whether he could cope with fighting and even killing someone. I really reckon if sexist, abusive names were counted and analysed on MN, then the term, Mummy's boy would come out on top. It gets shoe horned into so many threads. It is so sexist, and of course, on MN, it is an excuse for women to blame other women. It is such a misogynistic term but so loved on MN, Thankfully, most people in real life avoid such blatant sexist terms.

Completely agree. Some of the comments are awful. It's shameful.

@MiniDaffodils

I have brought them up to think that periods shouldn’t hold any one back. That child rearing is shared equally between men and women (except for the first few months when the women is possibly breast feeding). Also that whilst men are physically stronger that isn’t necessarily a disadvantage in modern combat which relies more on weapons than brute strength.

I don’t feel comfortable saying that actually women can’t go onto the forces because they are physically weaker and have periods - I don’t think that it holds weight as an argument anymore.

I assumed as men and women are both serving in the forces now that both sexes would be conscripted if needed in this country.

I think to some extent this is idealistic though. In an ideal world, periods wouldn't hold any woman back, but they do. Some women do suffer from difficult periods and it does limit their lives, as much as we wish it didn't. As much as we might wish that men and women were totally equal partners in child-rearing, it does fall largely to women.

Perhaps we don't want our children to grow up thinking that periods make women weak and childcare is women's work, but when it comes to a war situation, we have to consider the way things actually are more than the way we wish things were.

@Thereisnolight

I find it strange that your sons are not saying “conscription is wrong”. Instead they are saying “why aren’t women conscripted?” There’s a difference and it’s not showing them in a very good light. Good luck to your daughters with these brothers!

What a rude and horrible comment. An absolute disgrace. So it's not ok for children especially sons to ask questions about war? My DAUGHTER has asked the exact same question. But that's ok because she's a girl, has periods and can have babies? I find it so odd and disturbing that boys can't ask valid questions when this would never have been spoke about if this war wasn't happening until they had gotten older with more understanding. Have you ever thought they may be young and scared thinking if there was a war here their father and themselves might have to kill other people? Good luck to your children being raised by a sexist parent. Let's hope they have their own mindset.

@Moonface123

There would be absolute uproar if young women were to be conscripted alongside with young men in this country, its ok for young boys to be blown up or shot to bits but not young women, and as a mother of two sons this is exactly why l cannot take seriously any of the so called feminist posts on here, at the end of the day equality means equality., not picking and choosing the best bits and making lame excuses about the rest.

Absolutely! I don't have sons but reading this thread if I did would fill me with rage. As a previous post said "everything is equal between men & women until shit hits the fan". Never really seen anything on here that's disgusted me as much as this thread! God forbid boys asked a question and needed teaching. You can't do right for doing wrong.

@macygray
Have I never thought they might be young and scared thinking they might have to kill people?
Yes. Didn’t you read my post?
I just wondered why they (and their parent) didn’t ask why conscription was wrong.
Instead they thought it was unfair that women didn’t have to fight too. Which is an odd way to look at the issue.
The parent claiming to be unable to answer this question is also odd.
But I must admit the obsessive discussion here about periods is also odd.
As is your own response.
All in all a super-odd thread.

@AngelinaFibres when did the OP bring up periods? How do YOU know what she is teaching her sons about periods! Ffs

[quote Thereisnolight]@macygray
Have I never thought they might be young and scared thinking they might have to kill people?
Yes. Didn’t you read my post?
I just wondered why they (and their parent) didn’t ask why conscription was wrong.
Instead they thought it was unfair that women didn’t have to fight too. Which is an odd way to look at the issue.
The parent claiming to be unable to answer this question is also odd.
But I must admit the obsessive discussion here about periods is also odd.
As is your own response.
All in all a super-odd thread.[/quote]
Your post that I commented on had no mention of young boys feeling scared about the thought of having to kill other people, no! I agree it is an odd post, obsession with periods, girls being treated like delicate flowers. And weird posts like your own feeling sorry for another persons daughter because her brothers asked a question. What a sad post.

There would be absolute uproar if young women were to be conscripted alongside with young men in this country

It's depressing how several posters have pointed out that single young women and childless widows were conscripted in the 2nd World War but this fact just seems to be ignored in many posts. Of course they weren't fighting on the front line but what makes anyone think only men would be conscripted if (and let's hope it's not needed) the UK was involved in a war? It's been years since professional women soldiers have served on the front line in Afghanistan and Iraq or women sailors have crewed submarines. Women have flown fighter jets in the RAF for years. As for periods, lots of professional soldiers take oral contraceptives or have an IUD fitted.

I just don't understand the arguments about whether men or women have it worse in a war. Modern warfare is awful for everyone, whatever their sex or gender. I saw a video of an old woman in Ukraine with a zimmer frame trying to hurry across a humanitarian corridor. Another interviewee spoke about her disabled father lying in a bunker unable to look after himself. If Chernobyl goes into meltdown, men and women will be equally affected by radiation. The concept of 'fairness' tends to go by the board in wartime.

[quote macygray]@AngelinaFibres when did the OP bring up periods? How do YOU know what she is teaching her sons about periods! Ffs[/quote]
Because on Wednesday at 08:31 she told us she's told her children periods shouldn't hold anyone back. HTH.

[quote macygray]@AngelinaFibres when did the OP bring up periods? How do YOU know what she is teaching her sons about periods! Ffs[/quote]
Read be OP’s posts

FFS

@MiniDaffodils

I have brought them up to think that periods shouldn’t hold any one back. That child rearing is shared equally between men and women (except for the first few months when the women is possibly breast feeding). Also that whilst men are physically stronger that isn’t necessarily a disadvantage in modern combat which relies more on weapons than brute strength.

I don’t feel comfortable saying that actually women can’t go onto the forces because they are physically weaker and have periods - I don’t think that it holds weight as an argument anymore.

I assumed as men and women are both serving in the forces now that both sexes would be conscripted if needed in this country.

I understand why you have chosen to bring your children up in this way. We want the best for our children and we can't predict the future so we have to hedge our bets and hope for the best. Your view on the difference between the sexes is an optimist approach, more aspirational than reality, what I imagine you would wish for your children, and rightly so. However, you can only ignore reality till it comes for you directly as you are living it. You might get away with saying that periods won't stop you doing anything, if by good fortune your body is made in such a way that the inconvenience is minimum. You can push the idea, in my opinion also pushed by tv and film, that women can, through training and skill, overpower a random male. It's fine until you or your daughter actually comes across such a random male and unfortunately doesn't overpower them because realistically it wasn't going to happen. The same goes for child birth and simply having a child. We hope to have a birth without complications and long lasting effects, we hope to have a healthy child but if that doesn't happen we have to change our perspective. If we acknowledge that life isn't completely in our control then maybe we would feel better equipped to deal with reality when it occurs. I know that by explicitly facing reality we can discourage children to dream and push for what they want so I personally I would never discourage anything my children wished to pursue, but if we actively ignore reality we are also doing them a disservice. We make people think that by trying harder, by pushing ourselves to be stronger things could have been different. We make people feel inadequate when they don't live up to an "ideal" pushed, mainly by people who have actually been lucky enough to not encounter obstacles that block their path. In my opinion you are naïve to think that if the Uk had conscription then they would also call on females, even if that's the world you would like. It's strange that your sons query the " fairness" between the sexes in the war rather than the conscription itself.

I don't think men or women in the UK will be conscripted but IF they were do you think it would be from age 18 or a bit older?
18 is still very young, still school age for most, I think it would be older.

@Tree543

I don't think men or women in the UK will be conscripted but IF they were do you think it would be from age 18 or a bit older? 18 is still very young, still school age for most, I think it would be older.

In WWII and afterwards, people were conscripted at 18, deferring university until National Service was completed. I believe Bletchley Park recruited girls from the sixth forms.

The Ukraine was reported to have put in conscription registers for women months ago. I read women who are 18-60 and 'fit for military service' in many professions were required to register at the end of last year though how many have been called up so far is in question . Reservists usually get called before conscripts. Russia is widely reported to be using conscripts in Ukraine.

My family haven't been discussing it about Ukraine. We have discussed it in regards to the US, because I'm American and the Selective Service System being challenged again has been a story I've followed. We've used that and my own naturalization process to discuss the responsibilities, benefits, and risks of citizenship and residency & government powers.

We discuss that it's generally been considered and in some countries legally stated that part of a man's citizenship responsibility has been to protect. The Selective Service System's 'motto' is bluntly 'It's Your Country. Protect It', and non-citizen resident men are included in that. It's only recently been applied to women in a few countries in pretty much the same for both sexes, but women have been brought into conscriptions on limited basis in conflicts in our history and some choose to go into war fronts.

I don’t know if it’s possible to refuse to kill others and serve in another way but I am going to sugar coat things and tell them it is.

Conscientious objectors played many important roles in WW2, so I'd be surprised and frustrated if the 15 year old hasn't covered them at all in learning about it.

In our family, we have a mix of military and conscientious objectors and we've also discussed that.

I have decided just to focus on the fact that in the past our country also used to view women as not suitable to be in the armed forces but now they are more enlightened and do serve on the front line. Ukraine will perhaps change its position over time.

Nothing about conscription is enlightened, conscripting more people is not enlightened. It's a desperate move of force by powers that cannot get enough volunteers that it must use the threat of imprisonment, fines, and violence to get people to fight and kill for them in the way they want.

It's been discussed in some spaces that part of the reason is the issue Ukraine, like many countries, has had issues with non-military forces - some they've brought into the fold, but the militaries are not the only ones fighting and that can cause issues.

Yes - if as a govt you have to conscript to fill your army then you may need to reconsider whether you’re the only one who wants to fight. No one should be forced to kill or be cannon fodder. No one!

Some conscientious objectors did extremely dangerous roles, such as being stretcher bearers in WW1 going to and from the front lines. It doesn't mean you are going to be either safe or at a distance from fighting.

There was even a US research programme - run on the basis of informed consent - which involved human use trials of BCW countermeasures, with test subjects being mainly conscientious objectors of the Seventh Day Adventist Church (Project Whitecoat)

Yes WW2 style job allocation would throw us all into a spin.
Some young women were expected to go live in digs in order work in factories in nearest cities.
I met lots where I lived who'd worked in munitions factories. It could be dangerous, obviously.

@VikingVolva

Some conscientious objectors did extremely dangerous roles, such as being stretcher bearers in WW1 going to and from the front lines. It doesn't mean you are going to be either safe or at a distance from fighting.

There was even a US research programme - run on the basis of informed consent - which involved human use trials of BCW countermeasures, with test subjects being mainly conscientious objectors of the Seventh Day Adventist Church (Project Whitecoat)

There was a great film based on a true story about a conscientious objector, I think it was Hacksaw Ridge? Might have the name wrong.

He was really true to his conscience and had a hard time then he was a hero rescuing injured men in a battle. I think it was a WWII story.

Just found his story allthatsinteresting.com/desmond-doss

I think he was amazing and the men who despised him as a conscientious objector must have felt very ashamed at how things turned out.

Lol, of course he/she is.