Page 2 | How are you explaining to your boys about only men being conscripted in Ukraine?

Itwasntmeright · 09/03/2022 08:42

You’ve brought your children up to think men and women are equal in combat? Presuming you’re a woman OP, will you be volunteering to fight if War breaks out tomorrow?

HotPenguin · 09/03/2022 08:44

Even in the UK, women can't go into close combat roles. Since they are expecting close combat in ukraine it isn't really any different to what would happen in the UK. In urban warfare, how fast you can run and how strong you are is important so men do have a distinct advantage over women.

istandwithukraine · 09/03/2022 08:47

I would expect in a war situation that all "single" men and women are conscripted. Those that have parental duties (or carers) would be exempt. Conscription of women doesn't always mean frontline duties

There is currently also a little known caveat to the Ukraine conscription of men that any fathers with 3 or more children are also exempt. I wonder if anyone with less than 3 children in Ukraine is currently debating the fairness of that - I doubt it - they are doing what they have to do for their country

Selma22 · 09/03/2022 08:52

I am all for equality however there are advantages and disadvantages in different situations.For example women participate in sports however playing tennis whilst suffering from morning sickness or period cramps isn't the best.
Men are physically stronger this helps in war.
I am a new mother and I can't see the difference between my parenting and my partners.Like it or not genders have different ways of looking at things ,different driving forces and physical attributes (this obviously is does differ from a person to person ).
I think gender blindess perhaps isn't the way forward.Appreciate and encourage equality but down ignore the differences as it doesn't help anyone.

SirSamVimesCityWatch · 09/03/2022 08:52

Depending on their ages, this might be time for some hard truths about the reality of war. Mass rape of women is a weapon of war, always has been. Women are targeted for rape partly because of the disturbing reality that many, many men will rape women when given the opportunity to so do without consequences. Women are also raped in war because then the next generation of children in that country are the children of foreign soldiers and that further destabilises the country, lessening the chance of a successful fight back/rebellion. Added to the facts PPs have listed above conscription of women into front line roles is foolish.

Women are fighting in Ukraine, by the way, but they are volunteering to do so, at incredible personal risk considering the above.

DetailMouse · 09/03/2022 08:52

Is it "obvious" that in this country both men and women would be called up to fight?

I don't think conscripted women would be sent to fight as such. They could be conscripted to other roles, but not front line fighting, I don't think

BocolateChiscuits · 09/03/2022 08:53

Maybe could discuss evolutionary pressure...."Women and children first" came out of a real need to preserve a population in the long-term. Imagine you're a tribe of 100 and there's a disaster/war that kills 30% of your people. If you focus the losses on grown men, then with the help of a bit of single motherhood, your population numbers will return to normal after just one generation. But if you split the losses across women and men your subsequent generations will all be about 15% smaller. So tribes that took a 'women and children' first approach would've been more successful than tribes that didn't.

Then you could probably discuss it in terms of history... we now know women and men can do any job or role, but this wasn't always the case, and even now we are living with the consequences of this. So although men are just as good at looking after children, in practice more women actually do this job....etc seems like a good time to tackle the history of feminism to me

CharSiu · 09/03/2022 08:54

Of course parenting should be shared and periods shouldn’t hold you back from doing anything, for instance becoming an engineer or rising up to become CEO of a company. But depending on the physiology of the woman sometime periods do hold you back. I have known a few women who suffer every single month to the point they had to have treatment and take meds because they could not just go about their daily business.

TangerineClay · 09/03/2022 08:55

If they had kids would they think it fairer for the mother to die as well as the father?

KleineDracheKokosnuss · 09/03/2022 08:56

@MiniDaffodils

I have brought them up to think that periods shouldn’t hold any one back. That child rearing is shared equally between men and women (except for the first few months when the women is possibly breast feeding). Also that whilst men are physically stronger that isn’t necessarily a disadvantage in modern combat which relies more on weapons than brute strength.

I don’t feel comfortable saying that actually women can’t go onto the forces because they are physically weaker and have periods - I don’t think that it holds weight as an argument anymore.

I assumed as men and women are both serving in the forces now that both sexes would be conscripted if needed in this country.

So you told them kind lies rather than being blunt about the reality? You told them about the world in a way you want the world to be. You didn’t tell them how it is and then set out how you would like it to be.

The reality is that boys are viewed as far more disposable, because we simply don’t need as many of them in order to keep the population steady. They are also on average stronger, faster, and more likely to want to get involved in fighting. The testosterone does that to them.

AngelinaFibres · 09/03/2022 08:57

@Aroundtheworldin80moves

Point out that lots of women are staying to fight. The ones leaving are with children etc.

This. Many, many women are staying to fight. Those who are leaving have dependent children and elderly relatives. There was a woman on the news a few days ago who was dropping her children off at the border and then going back. She worked in an orphanage and had 50 children who needed her. The impossible logistics of getting them all out meant that she had decided to return to them in Kyiv.

GunsNShips · 09/03/2022 08:57

Saying only men means that most children have a parent left to take care of them. Most single parent families have single mothers not fathers.

And ask yourself, as equal as my partner and I are, if the UK said every family should send one adult would it be you or your DH? Because I know what the answer would be in by far the majority of cases.

StrictlyAFemaleFemale · 09/03/2022 08:58

My twitter feed is full of young ukrainian women in uniform who have volunteered. I know its not the point of your thread but my god they are brave.

Ways2b · 09/03/2022 08:58

@CharSiu

Of course parenting should be shared and periods shouldn’t hold you back from doing anything, for instance becoming an engineer or rising up to become CEO of a company. But depending on the physiology of the woman sometime periods do hold you back. I have known a few women who suffer every single month to the point they had to have treatment and take meds because they could not just go about their daily business.

What do women with heavy periods do in a war zone without access to toilets and sanitary products? Not a situation I wish on any girl.

I'm sure OP's boys with sensitive souls would actually raise to the challenge of defending their country. Or does op think her sons prefer their hypothetical future wives to stay and defend their country while the sensitive boys flee with tantrumming teething toddlers?

girlmom21 · 09/03/2022 08:58

Do you know what, actually, tell them the truth. There are massive physical differences between men and women, whether we like it or not.

Yes women can fight in wars. Yes women can weightlift. But most women can't compete with most men on that level.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 09/03/2022 08:59

They need a reality check.

Physical strength. Size. Muscle mass. All the things that put a healthy male far more at an advantage to any given female, even if she is taller and heavier.

The bit where if they get punched full strength by a girl their size and weight, it'll probably hurt, but if they did it, she'd be out cold if not needing reconstructive surgery.

To not tell them this does a disservice to both, as at present, they may think 'oh, she's fine, she doesn't need any help, she's as big as he is' when a woman is in danger. Or not comprehend why an intoxicated girl needs more help.

Effectively, you have to tell him that he's at a massive physical advantage to pretty much every woman he ever meets, sets eyes on or hears of online.

And yes, he also needs to know that rape is a weapon of war.

InDubiousBattle · 09/03/2022 09:00

How old are your dc? You've told them that childrearing is shared equally between men and women? That's not true.

ChildrenGrowingUpTooFast · 09/03/2022 09:04

Having equal rights and opportunities do not make us totally the same. There is biological difference and men are in general bigger and stronger than women. That's why they are conscripting men. It's just as simple as that.

DogInATent · 09/03/2022 09:04

Women are serving in the Ukraine, in the regular forces and the volunteer forces.
In some countries conscription includes male and female (e.g. Israel).

Obviously I have explained in this country both men and women would be called up to fight
Assuming you're in the UK, what leads you to this conclusion?
You want a frank and honest discussion with your children but choose make up 'facts' - you're either being contradictory or naïve.

ChildrenGrowingUpTooFast · 09/03/2022 09:04

And indeed someone already mentioned sexual violence to women and girls in war zones. You can't sweep that away.

godmum56 · 09/03/2022 09:06

I would say that the people of the Ukraine made that decision and you can tell them historical biological reasons why they might have done so but honestly you don't know factually why because you arent there....different countries, cultures and ethnicities make different choices and historically have different views on what men ansd women should do..

CharSiu · 09/03/2022 09:07

@SirSamVimesCityWatch

Makes an incredibly valid point, in WWII the Russian army raped many German women. The Japanese army were allowed to rape they forced women to become comfort women as they were called, it was state sanctioned.

I trained in Goju Ryu karate when I was young and did fight against men but obviously it was a supervised class. They generally put myself, the only other woman and younger lads against each other as we were a similar size but sometimes we just had to to do moves on men much bigger than ourselves, it was really hard. They used to make us run barefoot from the dojo and fight on the beach. I was incredibly fit but it was really hard keeping up with the men. I also played mixed hockey and having someone twice the size of you thundering headlong at you across the pitch is pretty intimidating.

Twicklette · 09/03/2022 09:10

How I hate on MN that whatever the discussion, in this case brave Ukrainian men fighting to defend their country, some posters jump in to use their favourite term of abuse for men, 'Mummy's boy' for any young man that questions whether he could cope with fighting and even killing someone.
I really reckon if sexist, abusive names were counted and analysed on MN, then the term, Mummy's boy would come out on top. It gets shoe horned into so many threads. It is so sexist, and of course, on MN, it is an excuse for women to blame other women. It is such a misogynistic term but so loved on MN, Thankfully, most people in real life avoid such blatant sexist terms.

AussieMozzieMagnet · 09/03/2022 09:10

@Nomoreusernames1244

There’s many, many reasons only men are conscripted.

Often due to socialised roles- women with caring responsibilities. Ask them if women went to fight, would men suddenly step up to childcare and domestic roles? Because still it is women than give up work and men who don’t share domestic chores.

Big one is lots of studies show men are so socialised into seeing women as “weaker” and needing to be protected, women on the frontlines are actually a hindrance as men don’t treat them as equals.

Tell them if they want to change things they have to make sure they do their share of the wifework when they grow up. If they want an equal society, women have fought for equality for years, now it’s mens turn to step up and take on responsibilities so women can be equal.

I'm feeling sorry for your future DILs already. Terrible. You're bringing up men who will have no understanding of what it's really like for a woman and they will have no empathy whatsoever. Scrap your ridiculous equality nonsense. It doesn't exist.

Snoken · 09/03/2022 09:10

@NeverDropYourMooncup