How are you explaining to your boys about only men being conscripted in Ukraine?

[MiniDaffodils]

I have both girls and boys. We have always brought them up to understand that whilst boys may be physically stronger, girls can undertake the same roles in anything as boys can.
My boys are upset at the thought that only men are being made to fight in Ukraine and not women. They think it’s very unfair.
I think they are imagining themselves in that same situation. Obviously I have explained in this country both men and women would be called up to fight. My boys are gentle souls and the thought of only men having to kill others is disturbing them.
My girls are relieved at the idea that women in Ukraine are not called to fight despite usually them being very vocal about the fact boys and girls are equal in all things.
My main question is how to explain this to my sons, rather than my daughters (who don’t seem as bothered by the issue).
Thanks

@Sally872

I would say to them "it's unfair anyone has to do it. Thank goodness it hasn't happened here. Those poor people having to fight"

I wouldn't divert their attention from the fairness of boys v girls as it is awful for every single person involved. None of it is fair.

Would divert them, not wouldn't.

@hotpinkkettle

and if you're a male that feels unfair.

I can’t say that I have ever felt it was unfair. For front line troops, the reasons why it is so are obvious.

This is what I get from this thread. That there are parents who are bringing up their children in this fairy tale that women and men are truly equal. So when these boys see any 'advantages' to being a woman it's unfair.

Boys, if you want to have a period every month where for two days you have to be close to a toilet and a change of clothes and then 'normal' heavy for the next two days, if you want to go through child birth and then sleepless nights due to feeding the baby, if you want to live with 'the fear' which seems to be the birthright of women, then be my guest. Believe me life isn't fair and @MiniDaffodils could do with teaching her boys that girls do get the shitty end of the stick in day to day life unfortunately boys get it in war.

@Moonface123
Completely agree. Thank you for having the courage to say it

What they need right now is infantry type fighters.

Physical strength is a factor.

They haven't got the time, the inclination or the resources to test if people are strong and fit enough, so are going with the population-level likelihood.

There is no reason not to deploy women in many other roles, but if that means higher-tech warfare, you don't have the time to train up conscripts. If you're re-roling people, it'll be from your standing army/navy/airforce, and will backfill their less skilled jobs with conscripts. Or it'll be this early with matching skills from the civvy sector.

There's no particular reason not to conscript women into logistics roles, defence medical roles and various others. We did it to an extent - land girls and munitions workers. The whole of the remaining population is likely good no to find themselves in a role that supports the war effort in one way or another, unless utterly incapable.

But conscription means infanteers and, absent the ability to select for strength or other aptitude, you have no choice but to go for the demographic that is most likely to be strong enough.

Also, the patriarchy. If you look at the Ukrainian military, it's heavily male dominated - though now about 10% women. IIRC, there were next to no Ukrainian female soldiers on peacekeeping ops in the 90/00s - compare the Scandinavians where they had women tankies crewing APCs. I think we would see quite different patterns of conscription in countries with higher levels of female participation in the military.

Women are not being conscripted but many of them are staying behind voluntarily, either to fight or because they work in essential services. Men are being conscripted because Ukraine is sociologically a more traditionally oriented nation, meaning men are more likely to view their role as protective and will therefore be willing to encourage their families to seek refuge in neighbouring countries. This also means that those who remain behind will be more focused on what they are doing because they are confident that their families are safe and therefore more efficient. The Ukraine is under attack, in circumstances like that hard decisions have to be made, there was no time to vacillate about concerns over equality or who should do what. Of course I know that women can do anything they want to but the children being forced to leave have to be looked after and no one should think that women are being given the soft option by becoming refugees.

@istandwithukraine

I would expect in a war situation that all "single" men and women are conscripted. Those that have parental duties (or carers) would be exempt. Conscription of women doesn't always mean frontline duties

There is currently also a little known caveat to the Ukraine conscription of men that any fathers with 3 or more children are also exempt. I wonder if anyone with less than 3 children in Ukraine is currently debating the fairness of that - I doubt it - they are doing what they have to do for their country

So I would be called up because I'm single but married people would be exempt? Could you please explain your reasoning for this?

And therefore they will be more efficient

I just shrug and say, “well men start them” (wars, i men).

@Onlywomengivebirth

I just shrug and say, “well men start them” (wars, i men).

Ha! Yes, this would also be tempting.

Wars, I mean.
I wish this site would allow editing.

My girls are relieved at the idea that women in Ukraine are not called to fight despite usually them being very vocal about the fact boys and girls are equal in all things.

I think now is a good time to explain whilst we want to be treated equally, and we should be, we are not equal in all things. Sometimes being treated equally means being treated differently, because someone begins with an unfair advantage.

Indeed @mpsw
And also to pp who pointed out that conscription involves being given training, weapons and armour whereas non-conscripts (pregnant, breastfeeding, looking after small children and the elderly) get nothing.
Women being conscripted to the frontlines in war makes little sense but women in the military in peacetime receiving training in shelter, self-defence, field medicine, navigation, foraging etc etc as well as more advanced technical roles should actually be far more encouraged.
Otherwise war is like the Helm’s Deep scene from Lord of the Rings.

[quote Twicklette]@Moonface123
Completely agree. Thank you for having the courage to say it[/quote]
Yeah, no courageous it is not and she isnotraisingcouragous boys either. On a different note, in terms of fairness, can anyone say what % of wars are started by women?

OP do your boys also think it's right that US transgender swimmer, Lia Thomas, is allowed to compete against women? Or do they understand that in that context, despite all the swimmers being elite, well trained athletes, that Lia Thomas has a biological advantage? There is a reason sport is split into male and female events, if the Russians were fielding an all female 'team' of soldiers then sure, Ukrainian women could fight fairly against them, but I'm not aware that they are.

Slashlover
The pp said parents and carers would be exempt, married but childless people who are not carers for a vulnerable person would still be expected to fight

*she is not raising courageous boys either with that attitude.

@HeardleFan But physically speaking women can't do anything that men can. This is the whole controversy over biological males in women's sports - the physical differences between the average man and the average woman demonstrate that when it comes to heavily physical things men are going to have the advantage

CityHigh

Well said 👏

[quote Dearblossom]Loads of women are fighting in Ukraine and very young ones at that. Pix here www.vice.com/en/article/qjbndq/ukrainian-women-soldiers-russia[/quote]
Gosh those girls look like they're no older than 14/15.

Honestly telling tem both sexes would be conscripted is actually not true .well not to the front line anyway to fight .it is only recently women have been allowed to join the infantry and very little have ..men are physically stronger and more importantly they reckon we women dont have the killer instinct for battle and yes they are probably right .

All countries are different. In Israel both men and women join the army at 18 for National service. Whilst there is conscription at the moment in Ukraine which is men only, there are a large number of women who are voluntarily fighting alongside them to protect their country and are welcomed. I would like to think that if push came to shove I would volunteer to fight to spare both my children.

Sometimes being treated equally means being treated differently, because someone begins with an unfair advantage.

In this context, would the unfair advantage be being physically weaker?

Perhaps explain that men have a duty to protect the women and children in their lives and in their community.

You can also point out that plenty of women in Ukraine are choosing to fight and being allowed to.

I don't know if women in UK would be made to fight if we found ourselves in the same circumstances. Maybe single ones or ones with no kids, but not ones with children. Yes, its sexist, but when it comes to the families with children, the relevant authorities would probably want to give the mother the option of staying and caring for the kids. Albeit letting her choose whether she stays with them or sends them to relatives and fights.

These kind of situations, when it comes to the crunch, prove ultimately that men and women are not equal. Wanting everything equal, until it comes to the really bad stuff like laying down your life (and then only men have to do this) - well, it's not OK.

Wanting to be treated fairly is completely different. Fair is when a man and a woman go for the same job (let's say something where sex makes no difference to the job) and they are subject to the exact same criteria with the better candidate receiving the job.

You can tell your child that one parent needs to evacuate the kids if you like. But really, they should appreciate that men and women are different. Neither is more valuable or better, but it is ridiculous to consider them the same.