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Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 10

996 replies

cakeorwine · 07/03/2022 19:53

That filled up quick

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4497950-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-9

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17
notimagain · 08/03/2022 07:22

@MMBaranova

France had Macron talking away. I wonder if, when we look back on things, the hours and hours Macron has spent talking with Putin will be seen as a useful distraction

Just as a point of order - President Macron has been highish profile in this because ATM France holds the Presidency of the Council of the European Union…not because the French have sent him to talk to Putin.

Inkanta · 08/03/2022 07:23

Yeah these threads are getting too political. Shame.

Oldmrswasherwoman · 08/03/2022 07:26

Lurked here since the first thread - politics and war are intertwined - you can't debate one without the other.

elephantmarchingin · 08/03/2022 07:30

Ah another morning another fuck up by the UK. Why are we poking the bear!!!

Why, when we have been singled out multiple times are we publicly saying we support the sending of planes when Russia have clearly said that's a line!

notimagain · 08/03/2022 07:30

@TokyoSushi.

FWIW there’s been a plenty of discussion regarding the Russian’s inflexible chain of command and the effect of officers getting, shall we say removed from the field on at least one other another forum (the slightly robust one loosely named along the lines of Army Rumour service Network Wink ) in the last day or two..

MarshaBradyo · 08/03/2022 07:31

@elephantmarchingin

Ah another morning another fuck up by the UK. Why are we poking the bear!!!

Why, when we have been singled out multiple times are we publicly saying we support the sending of planes when Russia have clearly said that's a line!

Elephant planes do you mean?

The ones from US or something else ie direct into Ukraine

elephantmarchingin · 08/03/2022 07:38

@MarshaBradyo sorry yes the planes. Sky news have stated this morning:
'Defence Secretary Ben Wallace says he would support Poland - a NATO country - in supplying jets to Ukraine if they chose to'

It's ok to have this agreement but don't publish it for everyone to see. I'm increasingly concerned about the UKs need to be gobby and antagonistic. After very clear threats I would've taken a back seat for a few days and let the other countries play their part whilst supporting behind closed doors

Wrongkindofovercoat · 08/03/2022 07:39

I thought it was that the UK supported the idea of Poland sending planes ? Sure that is what Ben Wallace said this morning ?

MarshaBradyo · 08/03/2022 07:40

Ok thanks

(Meant to put a which planes in last post)

elephantmarchingin · 08/03/2022 07:43

@Wrongkindofovercoat

I thought it was that the UK supported the idea of Poland sending planes ? Sure that is what Ben Wallace said this morning ?
That's what I wrote 'supporting the sending of planes'
cakeorwine · 08/03/2022 07:46

Ben Wallace has said he would support Poland with whatever they choose to do.

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Tuba437 · 08/03/2022 07:50

@cakeorwine

Ben Wallace has said he would support Poland with whatever they choose to do.
While also warning it could put them directly in the firing line of Russia if they did. To me that sounds like we will back them if they decide to go ahead with it, however we don't think its the best idea.
Tuba437 · 08/03/2022 07:52

Sounds a bit silly to me, why would you risk the country where the majority of refugees have fled getting dragged into the war themselves.

cakeorwine · 08/03/2022 07:53

We are supplying Ukraine with anti - aircraft, anti-tank and other lethal aid. Other countries are doing the same.

We are all in the potential firing line with the firepower we are supplying.

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Ijsbear · 08/03/2022 07:55

If indeed the chain of command thing is true, then strategically take out the officers and you have what amounts to a headless chicken. Untrained conscripts who are terrified and have nfi what to do.

Those are potentially going to be very dangerous to the civilians. Lost, under-led, over-adrenalized, hungry, and very unsafe men with poor discipline tend to take things out on the nearest easy target, I suspect.

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 07:57

@CaveMum

Interesting thoughts on military structure *@RedToothBrush*. I remember DH being quite critical of the way the USAF did things when he was working with them in Iraq and Afghanistan - he said junior officers had little responsibility compared to the same ranks in the RAF and that they were very much “one job” trained - ie a USAF engineer would literally be trained to deal with one component on an aircraft whereas a RAF engineer would be trained to deal with multiple elements. Perhaps it was a numbers game - our RAF is so much smaller (I think he told me that the US Navy’s flying wing is bigger than our whole airforce!) so you’ve got to take on more responsibility and be trained in multiple areas.
Yes, even the US is supposed to suffer from the same chain of command problem though to a less extent. The British because they value ingenuity, self sufficiency and discipline have a very different reputation. I don't think this is patriotic belief - i think its stood up to scrutiny.

By all accounts even just a few years ago the Ukrainian army was a bit of a mess from what I've read so something major has to have happened on the training side of things. Its come as a real surprise to everyone that theyve been so organised for starters. And whilst necessity is the mother of invention, i really do start to wonder the extent to which British training has helped.

The British certainly will have been thinking about tactical stuff like this as they know about it and will realise the type of war they'd have to fight and what strengths they could play to. The Ukrainians have been really thoughtful about this - they haven't gone in all guns blazing - in some cases theyve let troops pass then attacked the middle of the convey to cause more panic and problems. They flooded fields in preparation. There real consideration gone in there.

I don't want to suggest the Ukrainians aren't capable at all of this, they clearly are capable of a lot from what theyve achieved already. Its more that perhaps the combo of the two countries together with local knowledge, strength, determination and tactical know how really have made a significant difference to what would have been the case otherwise. In theory you would expect the Ukrainian army to perhaps lack that ingenuity and self sufficiency element because of the historical cultural element, though clearly certain events in their history and greater freedoms would point to them probably being less rigid that their neighbours.

When we are talking about just how pissy Putin has been about the British, this really does have to be one of those things to consider. I certainly don't know to what extent its made a difference but Zelensky himself has been at pains to mention it and really seems to have valued it.

The fact that the Ukrainians are seemingly actively keeping a tally of officers is interesting. You would expect Russian soliders, with leadership decapitated to go look for another leader. I wonder how many would know how to disable a gun/vehicle or would even think to do it. (Remember very young conscripts who have had no training).

We assume that destroying the guns is logical. Would we think the same if we were culturally from somewhere else? I also don't necessarily think that the Russians would automatically abandon the army - just try and report to someone else.

If you want a good example of lack of critical thinking / training theres been a good example circulating of a group of soliders who were supposed to go to the roof to set up a surveillance and defensive position. Except they decided to take the lift and the Ukrainians merely cut the power to the lift. The photo hasn't been verified but I don't think its likely to be fake either. The Russians aren't stupid but they also are not taught to think critically and we shouldn't dismiss how important this is in a situation like this.

cakeorwine · 08/03/2022 07:58

Interesting piece here on social media and Ukraine.

Why people post and how it could be more useful

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/08/ukraine-help-social-media-posts-russia-war

Too often, however, that truth is forgotten or pushed aside in the heady rush to post our way out of powerlessness. Isn’t that it? What is happening in Ukraine – as is what is happening in the likes of Palestine and Tigray, and all the regions where conflict rages – exposes our individual helplessness. It is a shock to be reminded of your own personal impotence in the face of geopolitical forces. Turning to the internet, where your voice echoes loudly once more, and a reshare is trumpeted as a quick solution to the distress, is a balm.

But it’s a fleeting feeling of catharsis. Closing Twitter after a long day of sharing opinions leaves me spent, and often angry, but no closer to feeling as if I’ve made any real difference.

The solution is, of course, one that’s existed for aeons: engage in the unshowy, sustainable work of collective organising. Pulling together donations for refugees. Fundraising. Mounting further pressure on the Home Office to immediately waive visa requirements. None of that precludes posting on social media, especially if you really do know what you’re talking about. But I’m not convinced that many of us do, to be honest. It’s a lesson in humility and forgoing the short-lived fix. I think the annals of history can survive this round without my take.

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ClaudineClare · 08/03/2022 08:00

A slightly lighter read on the idiocy of some in Hollywood.

PMQs is on Wednesdays usually TokyoSushi has it changed for this week?

www.theguardian.com/film/2022/mar/07/putin-hollywood-pals-leonardo-dicaprio-steven-seagal-depardieu-rourke-stars-snuggled-up-russian-dictator

FacebookPhotos · 08/03/2022 08:03

I may be way out of line, but is it possible that British troops were able to train Ukrainian soldiers for precisely this type of warfare because of Afghanistan and Iraq? They have experience of taking cities against a resistance force and know which tactics and weapons were effective then?

Just a thought, though, as I have no expertise on military tactics!

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 08:06

@Ijsbear

If indeed the chain of command thing is true, then strategically take out the officers and you have what amounts to a headless chicken. Untrained conscripts who are terrified and have nfi what to do.

Those are potentially going to be very dangerous to the civilians. Lost, under-led, over-adrenalized, hungry, and very unsafe men with poor discipline tend to take things out on the nearest easy target, I suspect.

Absolutely. And I think that's what we are hearing a few tragic reports of too.

If they see a car, they are liable to be nervous and shoot first and ask questions later.

They are highly unlikely to be able to set up green corridors as a result. Especially with the communications problems they are apparently having.

Again, my suspicion is we are fully aware of this as we aren't actively pushing more for green corridors politically (we certainly did in Bosnia for example though this was practically easier with humanitarian aid able to be flown in).

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 08:09

@FacebookPhotos

I may be way out of line, but is it possible that British troops were able to train Ukrainian soldiers for precisely this type of warfare because of Afghanistan and Iraq? They have experience of taking cities against a resistance force and know which tactics and weapons were effective then?

Just a thought, though, as I have no expertise on military tactics!

This would definitely be useful skills and knowledge and its interesting that Putin has asked for Syrian fighters. The US has said that there has been no sign of this happening. I wonder if there may be a move to train soliders though in the coming months...
cakeorwine · 08/03/2022 08:09

@FacebookPhotos

I may be way out of line, but is it possible that British troops were able to train Ukrainian soldiers for precisely this type of warfare because of Afghanistan and Iraq? They have experience of taking cities against a resistance force and know which tactics and weapons were effective then?

Just a thought, though, as I have no expertise on military tactics!

Some of this stuff is straight out of WW2. How to defend against an invader - preparing the land, flooding areas, the importance of bridges.

The chain of command discussions is interesting - the German army in WW2 had a poor chain of command at junior level. Targetting officers.
Supply chain issues - we were still using the beach heads in Normandy for much longer than anticipated to supply troops.

Control of the air.
Fighting in the cities - and cities being devastated and put under siege.

Armies learn from history. They learnt what worked and what failed,.

I would hope that Ukraine had prepared against a Russian invasion and would know what kind of things they would do, and how to prepare against it - without 'looking like they were preparing'.

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Fallsballs · 08/03/2022 08:13

@FatFucker
I take issue with any thread police.
People come on to this thread adding nothing and moaning about political bias.
I have my opinion and nothing you type will matter an iota.

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 08:18

Re Afghanistan. The British /Americans made the mistake of not thinking about Afghan military experience and how culturally they have had to be resourceful and inventive due to where they live and their history...

MarshaBradyo · 08/03/2022 08:20

Ben Wallace seems good on plane issue and balance between providing lethal aid and protecting U.K. - tricky but he acknowledges that

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