Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 10

[cakeorwine]

That filled up quick

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4497950-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-9

Excellent piece by the astute and crap-cutting John Crace

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/07/boris-johnsons-six-point-plan-for-ukraine-turns-out-to-be-six-vague-principles

PM’s plan – already all but forgotten – resembled something a toddler might come up with for a school assembly

@stormzyinatcup give it a day or so. It will calm down.

Re: Politics....

The simple fact is that it's inescapable. The response to this crisis by the U.k. govt is grounded by their manifesto and ideology.

It's not ineptitude that's blocking Ukrainian refuges to the U.K. its post-Brexit policy that's shaped by a Cabinet selected by Boris after his purge of the one nation moderates in the Tory party who challenged him.

It's appropriate to discuss that point and also equally valid to point out that the early response in supplying anti-tank weapons and training to Ukraine forces has been a significant factor (may have been pivotal) in the defence of the country - see link explaining Operation Orbital medium.com/voices-of-the-armed-forces/operation-orbital-explained-training-ukrainian-armed-forces-59405d32d604.

I watched the first episode of Servant of the People. (I thought the subtitles seemed a bit ropey.) It actually made me feel sad and anxious watching it. I've known several Ukrainian people for my entire life but I've always thought of urban Ukraine as being a bit bleak and Soviet, but it looked beautiful. The anxiety came from watching someone who is at this very moment being hunted by hit squads and at risk of being shelled by missiles. If those fuckers kill Zelenskyy I will be capable of killing Putin myself. (Actually, I'm starting to feel that way every time I turn on the news. The misery that one man is causing.)

Just want to mark my place by saying how much I loved this:
"6. Russia change their national language to Ukrainian"

Very snarky

BreadInCaptivity thank you for that link to Operation Orbital explaining the training and capacity building provided by the UK Armed Forces to Ukrainian troops since 2015.

Compared to the shambolic Russian invasion, the Ukrainian defenders seems organised, quick to mobilise and much more battle-ready in a way which can only be explained by prior training and coaching and preparation I feel proud of the UK military and more open societies who properly mobilise their troops are not just in it for the money they can milk out of a system and personal gain.

As regards the latter I am talking about the Putin and his venal Russians but include within that orbit to a lesser extent the current Tory 'leadership'.

Hmm. I still think Ukraine could win

Re the abandoned Russian trucks which are bothering me...

Putting together a few bits of info.

I know that the Russians are having to stick to the roads in many places and thats leaving them pretty exposed. The tactics the Ukrainians can use with this in mind really works to their favour. So in terms of destroying vehicles and guns, we need to keep in mind whether they have both the time and the wherewithal to do that.

By all accounts they've been specifically looking for and taking out fuel trucks whereever possible. And trying to 'motti' the conveys as they do this. And getting caught out in the open and almost 'picked off' is psychologically utterly horrific.

Something I recall my military history knowledge from years back was one of the things which apparently used to make the British army distinctive is the chain of command being structured so that if an officer is taken out, the next in line naturally takes over and knows what to do. We kind of take this as common sense and utterly natural thing to do. But apparently its not true of all armies, and I think I recall that the Russian army in particular were bad on that front, being much more hierarchical and unable to adapt and they had a tendancy to end up in disarray when an officer was taken out and not fully know what to do. Whether that still holds true today I don't know, but the Ukrainians have claimed today that theyve killed 1200 officers which is a staggering number. And would make even more sense in that context, especially since we already know they are putting everything under heavy surveillance and trying to take things out in a tactical fashion rather than take on everything.

Officers should not be obvious by badges etc, but they probably are by body language if you are observing over a period and picking off people.

If indeed the chain of command thing is true, then strategically take out the officers and you have what amounts to a headless chicken. Untrained conscripts who are terrified and have nfi what to do.

The rational, sensible thing to do would be to destroy the guns etc. But you are exposed and seeing people picked off and you've just lost your commander. And you possibly have no idea how to destroy the weaponry safely.

It starts to make more sense to be just leaving stuff at that point.

(yep those abandoned guns have bothered me all day that much!) .

(I thought the subtitles seemed a bit ropey.)

Definitely ropey. They didn't translate all the fucking swearing for starters! I can count the bleeps and it wasn't matching the swear words I was counting on the subtitles! But you got the idea at least!

Anyway, now Ive got annoying abandoned trucks off my chest, off to bed. Hopefully politicians will give my blood pressure a break tomorrow.

Zelensky (hopefully) has a star role at 5pm...

@mummykel16

Дорогой длинною

I hope they come again for the Ukrainians.

What does that mean?

@Catquestion It's a song, I think - Those Were The Days.

RedToothBrush your theory about the abandoned trucks makes sense.

I knew the Ukrainians were targeting less heavily fortified fuel trucks rather than the tanks but it makes sense they are also saving their gunfire for officers, rather than foot soldiers. I read somewhere that when the 40 mile column in the north got stuck, a commander got out and when to the front to un-fuck the mess and was shouting and waving his arms around and he got taken out by sniper fire.

Do you think that the 40 mile column is entirely abandoned by now? I hope no one, Russian or otherwise, is trapped in there with no food or water for days on end. The thought fills me with horror.

@Catquestion Some background

Interesting post RTB and I think an important perspective to consider insofar what's valued (and rewarded) in the respective forces.

In the U.K. (and the West) the chain of command is a deeply held principle.

However, to get to "command" there is an expectation of proving your strategic competence and being able to think independently and creativity. That involves challenging/debating strategy with your superiors and offering alternative tactics. Constructive criticism is valued.

It's not just about the second in command backfilling their senior's boots, it's more that they wouldn't be 2IC if there was a doubt they were not capable of doing so.

Essentially it's a value model. What's valued is a combination of inherent intellectual and physical skills and honing them repeatedly under training pressure.

In non democratic societies, the value model is very different.

Yes they adhere to the chain of command, but ideologically so, in the respect that what is most important is loyalty "doing what you are told" and that disables the potential to think/react creatively.

You don't get promoted for thinking outside the box - to quote popular culture "Russians don't take a dump without a plan" (Hunt for Red October) - and thus when the plan goes to shit (forgive the pun) there's a vacuum until there is a new plan.

It's telling they've had to send very senior officers to the front (from where some have been killed) to try and un-fuck the mess they are in.

Logistical issues are a massive factor but I wouldn't be surprised if your observation wasn't a significant determinant in the lack of progress from Russian forces relative to the theoretical power they should have been able to unleash.

@Catquestion
Дорогой длинною
''The Long Road''

The difference between the West and Russian military also manifests itself in supply chain management.

Apparently, the West (I should be more precise than just saying 'the West' but I cannot locate the link to the article where I read this) operates a pull method of supply chain management. The units in the field signal what supplies they need and the supplies are arranged. However, Russia operates a push method, whereby the decision as to where supplies go are made centrally. Therefore, if central command decides that they need to focus on artillery, that unit gets logistical support and another unit (say trucks) go further behind in priority. Put simply, in the West, strategy drives supply but in Russia, supply drives strategy. I hope I paraphrased that correctly.

I thought it is an interesting example of the different schools of thought in supply chain management between different militaries. The West's pull model is probably more flexible and adapts to shifting circumstances on the battle field but the push model is probably more centrally controlled and cost effective but rigid and less able to adapt to changing needs.

@blueshoes

The difference between the West and Russian military also manifests itself in supply chain management.

Apparently, the West (I should be more precise than just saying 'the West' but I cannot locate the link to the article where I read this) operates a pull method of supply chain management. The units in the field signal what supplies they need and the supplies are arranged. However, Russia operates a push method, whereby the decision as to where supplies go are made centrally. Therefore, if central command decides that they need to focus on artillery, that unit gets logistical support and another unit (say trucks) go further behind in priority. Put simply, in the West, strategy drives supply but in Russia, supply drives strategy. I hope I paraphrased that correctly.

I thought it is an interesting example of the different schools of thought in supply chain management between different militaries. The West's pull model is probably more flexible and adapts to shifting circumstances on the battle field but the push model is probably more centrally controlled and cost effective but rigid and less able to adapt to changing needs.

It's also again reflective of numbers.

You can't do "pull" with a massive army. It just doesn't work.

You can only "push".

You can't do "pull" with a massive army. It just doesn't work.

I watched a short documentary about Russian military logistics a few days ago, there were comparisons made with the US military in particular who apparently do use a pull system wherever they are in the world.

Thank you for the new thread.

Interesting thoughts on military structure @RedToothBrush. I remember DH being quite critical of the way the USAF did things when he was working with them in Iraq and Afghanistan - he said junior officers had little responsibility compared to the same ranks in the RAF and that they were very much “one job” trained - ie a USAF engineer would literally be trained to deal with one component on an aircraft whereas a RAF engineer would be trained to deal with multiple elements. Perhaps it was a numbers game - our RAF is so much smaller (I think he told me that the US Navy’s flying wing is bigger than our whole airforce!) so you’ve got to take on more responsibility and be trained in multiple areas.

So glad to see all the posters writing to their MPs about Priti Patel's lies and incompetence.

Is there anymore we can do to remove this awful women from power? Would a petition be helpful?

[quote Fallsballs]@DovesofPeace
Why don’t you trot off then and start your own non political thread.
There’s a good girl.[/quote]

This kind of post is exactly what spoils Mumsnet.

These threads used to be informative and were the first thing I read when I woke up in the morning.

But having to wade through all the Brexit, Tory/Labour bashing, look how wonderful I am I've written to my MP posts, is like walking through treacle.

Time to unfollow and find somewhere else. Which is a shame as it was so useful and for some, reassuring.

Here to replace FatFucker. Grateful for the discussion on these threads. Thank you all

@FacebookPhotos

From the home office Twitter:

The UK Government’s Ukraine Family Scheme is the first visa scheme in the world to launch since President Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

If this is true (seriously, I do not trust these people) it appears that the “world first” they were bleating on about earlier is a new visa scheme. Meanwhile, many other countries simply do away with visas for Ukrainian refugees and put their bureaucratic efforts into finding shelter and food for women and children fleeing war.

My god I hate Patel. I feel another ranting email to my MP coming on.

Some posters were wondering why Johnson's lying over having a birthday party mattered.

This is why it matters.

Morning. Here we are again. Great theory about the Officers @RedToothBrush - you could well be right.

I can't believe (well I can) that we're making a virtue of this fabulous visa system when countries like Poland have done so much. It's because they have a bit of humanity and just don't bloody have one!

Looking forward to seeing if anything has changed by PMQ's today and of course seeing Zelensky later.

Let's hope it's not an awful day 🇺🇦