Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 10

996 replies

cakeorwine · 07/03/2022 19:53

That filled up quick

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4497950-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-9

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
notimagain · 08/03/2022 08:24

@FacebookPhotos

I may be way out of line, but is it possible that British troops were able to train Ukrainian soldiers for precisely this type of warfare because of Afghanistan and Iraq? They have experience of taking cities against a resistance force and know which tactics and weapons were effective then?

Just a thought, though, as I have no expertise on military tactics!

Probably best answered by somebody who was there but Afghanistan wasn’t the same sort of conflict…Iraqi?

That said the Brits and NATO forces practiced, drilled and were equipped for decades to counter a armoured Soviet/Russian advance across central and Western Europe.

That possibility (in Russian form) was still considered a threat, was still trained for and amongst many things is no doubt one of the reasons why there has been so much anti-tank weaponry readily available in the various NATO member state arsenals that has now been sent to equip the Ukrainian forces.

borntobequiet · 08/03/2022 08:25

Asymmetric warfare has been big this century, greatly aided by improvements in communications, intelligence and logistics. Here’s an article from 2001. It mentions that Britain, with its colonial past, had experience to draw on that others didn’t (this includes experience in NI of course).

www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/03/afghanistan.socialsciences

As I’ve mentioned before, a government that exists largely to asset strip the country it governs, as does Putin’s, will not be interested in investment in its armed services and is underpinned by central control and planning dependent on rigid hierarchies and unquestioning compliance with orders from above. No wonder their army is in a mess.

DrBlackbird · 08/03/2022 08:25

I’m agreeing that it would be better if some of our cabinet actually spoke less publicly on military matters.

Ben Wallace to Sky saying “I would support the Poles and whatever choice they make,” adding that the UK could not offer aircraft that the Ukrainians would be able to use. “We would protect Poland, we’ll help them with anything that they need, Poland will understand that the choices they make will not only directly help Ukraine, which is a good thing, but also may bring them into direct line of fire from countries such as Russia or Belarus.”

So, Poland helps Ukraine and the UK helps Poland and then we’re all definitely in it? Why say so this publicly and not through private diplomatic channels if that’s the govt’s intention?

FacebookPhotos · 08/03/2022 08:28

cakeorwine, I know next to nothing about military action in WWII (never studied it, and my wider reading has left me with somewhat patchy understanding). I can see that armies learn from the past, but I was thinking more about institutional knowledge and in many cases personal experience of recent conflicts.

I know that the British army often train others - is this something most countries do? I mean, will the Americans and French (for example) have been training the Ukrainian army as well but we just don't hear as much about it?

MarshaBradyo · 08/03/2022 08:30

I think we need to be able to state our position so I’m fine with Wallace’ statements

This morning he emphasised it’s for Poland to decide, there may be kick back but we support their decision

I’m ok with the clarity on our position

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 08:31

The Washington Post @washingtonpost
Hackers working for the Russian military conducted widespread phishing attempts against Ukrainian citizens in the runup to the invasion, and Belarus targeted both Ukrainians and the Polish military, Google said.
Belarus conducted widespread phishing campaigns against Ukraine, Poland, Google says
The campaign indicates that the Russia ally has done more in the war against Ukraine than serve as just a staging area for Russian troops

Googe’s threat-hunting team released details of the tricks deployed against the Polish military, which a spokeswoman said appeared to be the first report of its kind. Google said it had warned hundreds of Ukrainian residents about government-backed hacking attempts in the past year, most of them from Russia.

Google’s Threat Analysis Group said it did not know if any of the attempts had succeeded, since they were not aimed at Google’s email accounts.

In the past two weeks, the attack group known as Fancy Bear, which is associated with Russia’s GRU military intelligence unit, launched several large phishing campaigns against users of Ukr.net, a Ukrainian media organization, Google said. The emails came from compromised accounts and led targets to fake log-in pages.

Even more recently, in the days since Russia invaded Ukraine with logistical help from Belarus, a hacking group in Belarus known as Ghostwriter has used phishing to try to get credentials of Ukrainian government officials and members of the Polish military, Google said.

And

Google also said it had detected a China-based “threat actor,” Mustang Panda, attempting to plant malware in “targeted European entities with lures related to the Ukrainian invasion.” It did not name the organizations targeted but said the campaign “represented a shift from Mustang Panda’s regularly observed Southeast Asian targets.”

And

Not known as a significant force in hacking, Belarus was named by security firm Mandiant in November as behind hacking attempts in Poland and Lithuania.

The same group was identified by Google as also behind misinformation campaigns in neighboring countries, many of them critical of NATO, Mandiant said.

“These guys have been targeting Poland even before the war, it’s a natural enemy,” said Jaime Blasco, co-founder of start-up Nudge Security.

Damnloginpopup · 08/03/2022 08:38

Briefly have a connection but no time to catch up properly. Saddened to see that an excellent series of threads I started within minutes of the invasion starting are being wilfully derailed by certain people wanting to make them about something other than the invasion. From being so informative and useful to petty squabbling and distraction in 24 hours. Shame on some of you. I'm glad I am going to be largely offline now so I don't have to be continually disappointed.

Re officers etc. 'Back in the day' when I was serving, cold war era and trained against what would have been third shock army rolling through the plains of Germany...a sniper's targets were, in order, sniper's, officers, signallers, machine gunners . Had it been against the British army then sniper's, sergeants, officers etc. Sergeants are the backbone of the British army despite being beneath the officers but run the platoons and at platoon level have way more experience, skills and importance. With the Russians nobody is trusted...

Wrongkindofovercoat · 08/03/2022 08:39

I don't understand the whole 'don't poke the Bear' thing either.

The Bear has illegally invaded another sovereign country and is murdering its citizens and has caused the biggest refugee crisis Europe has seen since WWII.
We have publicly condemed them, we have sanctioned them hard , we have and are continuing to provide military support ( intel etc) and hardware, we are providing humanitarian aid. All of these individually are Bear poking, combined together it amounts to poking the Bear, nicking his lunch and insulting his wife !
But 'we' are not just the UK, we are Nato, EU countries and lots of other countries in the World. The UK media will mention the threats made to the UK because that is what makes you keep watching/clicking etc, which can raise your anxiety levels at the best of times.
I am sure Putin has threatened other countries too.

MissMarpleRocks · 08/03/2022 08:47

Thank you to everyone who is contributing to these threads.

I don’t have much to add but at A level I studied history from 1938 to the present day (1983!) - shows my age. You cannot appease a bully. Chamberlain tried with Hitler. It didn’t work. The only thing that works with a bully is to stand up to them.

I’m glad if U.K. are doing that even if it means “poking a bear”. This bear is a bully.

However I’m not glad about is the lack of action on refugees & I’ve written to my MP about that.

WeAreTheHeroes · 08/03/2022 08:47

Not sure what threads you are referring to as I've been sticking to these although they're very fast moving and I haven't been able to read everything.

I'm pleased the UN has stepped in this morning on the issue of humanitarian corridors. The Beeb has reported that civilians are being evacuated from Sumy.

The one thing that is giving me hope is the outpouring of heartfelt and concrete support for Ukrainians from others.

The UK needs to get it's act together on visa processing and the information they're asking for - apparently they're asking for passport numbers of relatives remaining in Ukraine according to a Brit helping his mother in law and brother in law's family come to the UK.

ImprobablePuffin · 08/03/2022 08:56

@Inkanta

Yeah these threads are getting too political. Shame.
I mean it is pretty unavoidable when the whole situation is about politics. How do you suggest we remove the politics from the conversation?
FOJN · 08/03/2022 08:57

Blinken is also on the news this morning saying the US will supply Poland with fighter jets to replace the ones they supply to Ukraine. I think it helps to be clear about what we intend to do, it deprives Putin of the opportunity to escalate by claiming backdoor NATO involvement and we can guage his response. Anything we do to support Ukraine will antagonise him.

Jisforjelly · 08/03/2022 08:58

Do we think that Poland offering fighter jets will kick off ww3? As if Poland is attacked then NATO as a whole will need to get involved.

Sorry if I’m selfish, but I really hope it doesn’t come to that Sad

MarshaBradyo · 08/03/2022 09:04

@Wrongkindofovercoat

I don't understand the whole 'don't poke the Bear' thing either.

The Bear has illegally invaded another sovereign country and is murdering its citizens and has caused the biggest refugee crisis Europe has seen since WWII.
We have publicly condemed them, we have sanctioned them hard , we have and are continuing to provide military support ( intel etc) and hardware, we are providing humanitarian aid. All of these individually are Bear poking, combined together it amounts to poking the Bear, nicking his lunch and insulting his wife !
But 'we' are not just the UK, we are Nato, EU countries and lots of other countries in the World. The UK media will mention the threats made to the UK because that is what makes you keep watching/clicking etc, which can raise your anxiety levels at the best of times.
I am sure Putin has threatened other countries too.

Yes we need to be able to be clear on our position at least, without fearing Putin’s reaction to that

Otherwise we are stuffed

ClaudineClare · 08/03/2022 09:06

@FOJN

Blinken is also on the news this morning saying the US will supply Poland with fighter jets to replace the ones they supply to Ukraine. I think it helps to be clear about what we intend to do, it deprives Putin of the opportunity to escalate by claiming backdoor NATO involvement and we can guage his response. Anything we do to support Ukraine will antagonise him.
Sorry, I am being thick here, but how does this stop Putin being able to claim NATO involvement by the back door? Poland is supplying planes and are part of NATO?

Poland is bloody brave to be doing this. It is standing so solidly with Ukraine.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 08/03/2022 09:07

Do we think that Poland offering fighter jets will kick off ww3?

Is this 'new' news though ?

I am sure this was mooted a few days ago wasn't it ? Along with the movement of other aircraft to cover the ones Poland had donated ?

shreddednips · 08/03/2022 09:09

@Jisforjelly

Do we think that Poland offering fighter jets will kick off ww3? As if Poland is attacked then NATO as a whole will need to get involved.

Sorry if I’m selfish, but I really hope it doesn’t come to that Sad

I'm not an expert, but my instinct is no. The west has already provided lots of lethal equipment, gathered huge numbers of troops in nearby countries and set in place sanctions beyond what I think Putin could have imagined it would. That's a lot of bear poking, yet Russia hasn't done anything concrete to threaten the west yet apart from sabre rattling. I think the latest threat is cutting off gas and oil supplies to the west. The sabre rattling is to intimidate, but I don't see why Russia would WANT to kick off WW3.

I also think it's a good thing that the UK is being upfront about what it's doing. Doing stuff in secret could lay matters open to misinterpretation, which would be dangerous.

Natsku · 08/03/2022 09:15

I know that the British army often train others - is this something most countries do? I mean, will the Americans and French (for example) have been training the Ukrainian army as well but we just don't hear as much about it?

Lots of countries do it, like NATO training exercises with different countries learning from the host country, and Peacekeeping forces training the local army how to carry on defending themselves after they leave, like a couple of years ago when Finnish Peacekeepers were training Kurdish forces.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 08/03/2022 09:15

Sorry, I am being thick here, but how does this stop Putin being able to claim NATO involvement by the back door? Poland is supplying planes and are part of NATO?

I wonder what the difference is between a few planes and the ton of missiles that have already been provided ? Do the Ukrainians have enough pilots to make a huge difference ? Would more defensive weapons be better for them tactically ?

ChimChimeny · 08/03/2022 09:16

[quote notimagain]@TokyoSushi.

FWIW there’s been a plenty of discussion regarding the Russian’s inflexible chain of command and the effect of officers getting, shall we say removed from the field on at least one other another forum (the slightly robust one loosely named along the lines of Army Rumour service Network Wink ) in the last day or two..[/quote]
Ooh can you elaborate please for those who aren't in the know?!

Natsku · 08/03/2022 09:17

I don't think anyone needs to worry about the UK talking publicly about its support for Ukraine, its not going to put the UK in the firing line, too far away except for nukes and that is so very very unlikely to happen as Putin knows what the result would be. Cyber attacks have been going on for years already, that's the only other attack they can really do.

EezyOozy · 08/03/2022 09:18

I hope this isn't true…

https://mobile.twitter.com/StratcomCentre/status/1501119411062816773?refsrc=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1501119411062816773%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es11&refurl=file%3A%2F%2F%2Fprivate%2Fvar%2Fcontainers%2FBundle%2FApplication%2FF8A3A4A0-5151-4C93-8F22-3646C572DDFD%2FGLA.app%2FArticleTemplates%2F

AgnesWestern · 08/03/2022 09:19

I’m assuming it’s not like Polish Air Force flying those planes. They’re only giving them to Ukraine to use, the same as they did with other weapons and tanks etc.

Freedombpass · 08/03/2022 09:21

I don't get why everyone is suddenly worrying about the plane thing, as far as I recall that was already being talked about last week.

ClaudineClare · 08/03/2022 09:22

@AgnesWestern

I’m assuming it’s not like Polish Air Force flying those planes. They’re only giving them to Ukraine to use, the same as they did with other weapons and tanks etc.
OK, right I think I get it now, thank you.
Swipe left for the next trending thread