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Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 10

996 replies

cakeorwine · 07/03/2022 19:53

That filled up quick

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4497950-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-9

OP posts:
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17
HeadPain · 09/03/2022 10:00

[quote CaveMum]@HeadPain I got in trouble (post deleted) for doing it before so I’ll try to be a bit more subtle this time Wink

If you go to the website archive dot today you can put a link to the Times article in the box at the top of the page and it should convert the link to an accessible version.

It doesn’t work for every website but does seem to bypass the Times paywall.[/quote]
Ohh thank you Grin !

HeadPain · 09/03/2022 10:02

@JanetPluchinsky

Is anyone watching the Russian statement right now? Are they gearing up to declare war on the US or am I misunderstanding?

Stating very clearly that US and allies are building bio weapons along the Russian border.

Fk. Where are you watching that??
SpinningTheSeedsOfLove · 09/03/2022 10:03

@Monitaurus

Have been reading but not commenting. I want to know which organisations are at the borders or in the cities to prevent trafficking of women and girls. While the offers of help and accommodation are admirable, we know this happen in war/ refugee situations. Even before this kicked off, thousands of Eastern European girls and women have been exploited in the west. I am very concerned about what is happening at the stations etc, and if the organisation on the ground are doing this.
Stop The Traffik is a good organisation and are trying to co-ordinate intelligence and action on this, along with NGOs

www.stopthetraffik.org/stop-traffik-traffik-analysis-hub-statement-conflict-ukraine/

It's absolutely chilling. Refugees are at risk of all sorts of trafficking/exploitation - sexual, domestic servitude, organ harvesting, forced criminality, labour exploitation ... it goes on and on.

JanetPluchinsky · 09/03/2022 10:04

@HeadPain on Sky News just now. A long rambling speech from a spokesperson from the Russian Foreign Ministry.

Blizy · 09/03/2022 10:09

@JanetPluchinsky
I watched it for the same idea as you.

Notonthestairs · 09/03/2022 10:11

For those that read Laurence Freedman he's on Question Time tomorrow night - along with Ukrainian ambassador.

twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1501305080376528898?s=21

Jisforjelly · 09/03/2022 10:12

Supposedly she said ‘we need to come to a resolution through peaceful means’ but maybe there fake news, no idea what’s real and what isn’t at the moment.

Notonthestairs · 09/03/2022 10:13

My mistake - QT on tonight.

AgnesWestern · 09/03/2022 10:14

Are they telling the truth here or…?

twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1501499920410615812?s=21

CaveMum · 09/03/2022 10:15

Sky News tweet on the Russian “statement”: twitter.com/skynews/status/1501498868797788160?s=21

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 10:18

@JanetPluchinsky

Is anyone watching the Russian statement right now? Are they gearing up to declare war on the US or am I misunderstanding?

Stating very clearly that US and allies are building bio weapons along the Russian border.

Might be over stating.

To survive domestically they have to drive the narrative - they can't say 'the special operation against Ukraine has gone horribly wrong' but they also can't hide a prolonged war either.

Eventually they have to get the narrative to change from 'special operation' to 'war' without it appearing like Ukraine - a much smaller country which they are pushing as ethnically inferior - can be causing their mighty Russia army such a head ache. Cos pride / loss of face etc.

They also have to manage the domestic situation economically and make it into a 'home front', in which they can gear up their entire country to get behind as quickly as possible. For their own survival on a number of levels - including power, military, but also more basic stuff like perhaps needing to ration.

BUT my suspicion is they certainly don't want to engage the West head on either - at least not at this point.

Think about it in terms of how the UK changed the production of our factories and repurposed things etc etc in WWII. And how we shifted to better self sufficiency and food production by the land army. Eventually that stood us in good stead for later battles in 1944 onwards. But we weren't in that position in 1939.

So I wouldn't necessarily take it as gearing up to declare war on the US any time soon. But I also wouldn't take it as them not gearing up for a big war either.

I think the US and Europe need to have a long hard think about this - how quickly could we do the same type of adaptations that Russia might be getting on with now, if this is something thats going to run for years and years?

I see this statement as perhaps one for domestic consumption rather than something more.

Putin's words about sanctions were:
'Sanctions are akin to a declaration of war, but thank God it hasn't come to that yet'.

Think about it. Russia wants to stay in control of the narrative and if it takes further action against the west, it will want to do so at a moment of its choosing and when its ready.

Its a warning alright. But I'm not expecting things to happen any time soon.

And with this in mind, see my point above about there being a sudden desire for security forces to 'round up' any Russians that they've had eyes on for some time...

This isn't going away any time soon. I see this is being one of the first signs about an admission of it being a long haul exercise and starting to lay the ground work for that.

In other words: they aren't going to make any peace with Ukraine. They are going to do their best to radicalise their population and perhaps build for a wider war in a few years time. I have a certain feeling that its trying to move it away from being Putin's war to being one of Russian national survival (in a similar fashion that we see working under Zelensky in Ukraine).

Its worrying. But like I say, not in the way imagined by most of the public in the West.

We are switching to a long term thing. Russia aren't going to back down and they are accepting they also are unlikely to be able to control Ukraine even if they take it.

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 10:20

Meanwhile:

Mirror Celeb @MirrorCeleb
Sting says the days of performing private gigs for Russian billionaires 'are over'

AgnesWestern · 09/03/2022 10:21

“It will be better if we achieve our results through peaceful negotiations”

twitter.com/skynews/status/1501494595926036488?s=21

dreamingbohemian · 09/03/2022 10:24

New Lawrence Freedman on the options for ceasefire/negotiations:

samf.substack.com/p/giving-peace-a-chance

ClaudineClare · 09/03/2022 10:26

@RedToothBrush

Meanwhile:

Mirror Celeb @MirrorCeleb
Sting says the days of performing private gigs for Russian billionaires 'are over'

Maybe he could donate to the Ukrainian refugee effort the money he has pocketed from those gigs?
RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 10:30

I should say also, that a war with Russia still isn't inevitable.

But Russians may need to believe that the West is about to invade them.

Think Kim Jong-un keeping power and the extent of which he has to be Totalitarian. America is about to declare war, therefore I need to abuse you, starve you and parade rockets in the street to demonstrate my power and commitment to you.

Russia isn't going to be a nice place to live for a while. We are talking proper Stalinesque levels of nasty. Think about stuff that the Stasi did during the Cold War.

What we may be seeing is stepping into that world, to prop up the Russian Elite's power rather than imminent war. Another Cold War.

But that kind of indoctrination to that level is a real risk to the West too, and I don't underestimate it.

Also if it has the effect of scaring the Bejesus out of the public in west - who are going to feel the effects HARD in coming months - it raises political pressure on governments to drop sanctions. Which is good for Putin.

If Putin is going full on Kim, I really don't think we have that choice now though. We can not just change our minds about those sanctions. We are now also fully committed for a long haul

Things are not going to be easy for anyone for a long time.

GallopingHighRoad · 09/03/2022 10:33

@Notonthestairs

My mistake - QT on tonight.
Thank you for spotting that. Revised time of 8pm also.

Good panel I think.

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 10:33

[quote dreamingbohemian]New Lawrence Freedman on the options for ceasefire/negotiations:

samf.substack.com/p/giving-peace-a-chance[/quote]
This is nonsense. Ignore it.

That Russia statement is a clear indication of intent that they have absolutely no interest in an exit ramp any time soon.

They are doubling down and digging in for the long haul.

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 10:37

Btw, green issues are going to shoot RIGHT up the agenda as also being security led issues.

I can see money getting poured into anything that makes us more self sufficient and less dependant on others who supply fuel.

Patrotic Green Campaigns are coming your way soon...

PerkingFaintly · 09/03/2022 10:43

Yes re expansion of green energy. NB We don't usually think of renewable energy being shipped between countries, but actually there are projects to generate solar power for the UK in North Africa.

The colossal African solar farm that could power Europe
www.bbc.com/future/article/20161129-the-colossal-african-solar-farm-that-could-power-europe

So while a diverse generating profile can only be a good thing – not too many eggs in one basket – the issue of dependence on other countries isn't going away.

CaveMum · 09/03/2022 10:45

@RedToothBrush

Btw, green issues are going to shoot RIGHT up the agenda as also being security led issues.

I can see money getting poured into anything that makes us more self sufficient and less dependant on others who supply fuel.

Patrotic Green Campaigns are coming your way soon...

We have a massive solar farm (biggest in the U.K.) being planned near us. There is widespread opposition to it from the councils and MPs concerned as well as local people but I think given current events it is likely to get approval despite the fact that it will obliterate hundreds of acres of prime agricultural land that would be better used to actually help make us more self sufficient.
dreamingbohemian · 09/03/2022 10:47

Er, did you mean to quote me there RTB?

Lawrence Freedman is not talking nonsense. He's saying we're not at a ceasefire point yet but if a real stalemate emerges what might one look like.

I agree with him that Russia would aim for a 'keep what you hold' ceasefire and Putin can probably find a way to spin a victory out of seizing a land bridge to Crimea and in practice enforcing neutrality in Ukraine.

One can see the statements about biological weapons and missiles as setting up a strawman problem that Russia will have 'solved' with its invasion.

You can see in Zelensky's statements yesterday that he is basically acknowledging Ukraine will have to remain officially neutral for the foreseeable (there is no NATO/EU membership on the cards yet) and in practice will have to live with Russia owning Crimea. The dicier questions (as they always have been) are what to do with the Donbas and whether security guarantees are possible.

DGRossetti · 09/03/2022 10:50

The Ukrainian MP on R4 made a fair point ...

"WW3 has already started. It's just a question of choosing when to join in."

WW2 did not start in 1939.

dreamingbohemian · 09/03/2022 10:54

You can also see Ukraine spinning a kind of victory even if they are forced to accept Russia seizing this larger portion of territory between the Donbas and Crimea, in exchange for Russian withdrawal elsewhere in the country:

They fought back and prevented a complete Russian takeover
Zelensky stays in office
They now have wayyyyy more weapons and staunch global support
Sanctions will continue against Russia and Putin may be out of office soon, creating new possibilities for negotiations
Long term those territories are likely to rejoin Ukraine, especially if Russia is too badly hit by sanctions to support them

I'm not saying Ukraine should accept those terms, ideally they will hold out long enough that Russia will be forced to withdraw completely.
But if that's not possible, this is probably where we're headed.

workisnotawolf · 09/03/2022 10:56

This website has a number of interesting articles:

oilprice.com

This article offers a quite different perspective, a bit controversial for us maybe, interesting nevertheless.

oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Russias-Invasion-Of-Ukraine-Will-Benefit-China.html

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has not only reignited geopolitical tensions in Europe but has also pushed Russia towards China and ensured the entrenchment of a new Eurasian bloc.

“In Conclusion

The bottom line is that while Beijing may feel a certain sadness that it has slipped into a subordinate position again, with regard to Russia, the reality is that the Ukraine war has stabilized the position of the CPC and PRC as Xi Jinping moves toward consolidating his domestic position in history at the XXth CPC Party Congress in October 2022.

Xi’s position in PRC domestic power struggles was, after all, made even more ambiguous because of the clear failure of the February 2022 Beijing Winter Olympics to restore prestige and credibility to an increasingly isolated PRC. To be sure, that poor investment in staging the Winter Olympics would not be enough to derail Xi’s bid for re-election at the XXth Party Congress, but it hardly helped him.

What ultimately emerges for the CPC is something that was imagined during the Cold War: a harmonious (if expedient) Sino-Russian bloc that could build a global position of allies and partners. What helped end the Cold War was the West’s move to exacerbate the Sino-Soviet rift, and that process also included the promises by Reagan and Thatcher to Russia and US Pres. Richard Nixon’s promises to Beijing.

But the West is not in a position to use those same tools so easily in the future.”

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