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Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 10

996 replies

cakeorwine · 07/03/2022 19:53

That filled up quick

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4497950-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-9

OP posts:
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17
Motherdare · 09/03/2022 09:20

The daily mail is and always has been such an irresponsible outlet, todays story about the squaddies shows this once more

The story is in many papers today.

Irresponsible of them all.

namitynamechange · 09/03/2022 09:31

@Candlecassie

Why has Poland offered their jets to the USA and not to Ukraine direct?

Also, and trying to word this correctly. Why are the UK so heavily involved. I mean Zelensky in parliament yesterday, why not Spain or Germany? Boris to Poland last week, why not the Prime Minister from France or somewhere else. Also, Putin has made direct comments about the UK recently. Rightly so, we should be helping and I don’t think we are doing enough to help refugees. I think my question is why are the UK involved so heavily politically?

I think its partly because the other countries are doing things as the EU - so it won't be as much "Zelenskyy spoke to Spain/France/Germany/etc" as "Zelenskyy spoke to the EU" ditto Putin's comments. So the distinct players politically end up being the EU, US, UK.
borntobequiet · 09/03/2022 09:33

Critics of the Agriculture Bill (notably the NFU) have pointed out that it lacks an emphasis on food production and in fact puts UK farmers at a disadvantage when food produced to lower standards can be imported. (Post-Brexit deals with Australia and NZ have added to concerns.)
Perhaps subsidies to farmers based on actual food production could be looked at again in this time of compromised food security.

Monitaurus · 09/03/2022 09:33

Have been reading but not commenting. I want to know which organisations are at the borders or in the cities to prevent trafficking of women and girls. While the offers of help and accommodation are admirable, we know this happen in war/ refugee situations. Even before this kicked off, thousands of Eastern European girls and women have been exploited in the west. I am very concerned about what is happening at the stations etc, and if the organisation on the ground are doing this.

CaveMum · 09/03/2022 09:34

Interesting comments about Arab states and their links with Russia @RedToothBrush. A friend of mine is a teacher in a private school, not one of the very top schools but a decent school with a good reputation and long history. She told me a while ago that they have a reasonable number of students (they take boarders from 7+) who are Russian by birth but who have pretty much lived their whole lives (when not in school) in Dubai.

Monitaurus · 09/03/2022 09:35

Really pleased to hear about the Indian students prestor

CaveMum · 09/03/2022 09:36

@Monitaurus I don’t know if there are any dedicated organisations on the ground but yes the exploitation of women and girls is a huge concern.

I read that story of the 11yo boy who travelled alone to Slovakia and my first thought was “if he had been a girl he’d never have made it their safely, if at all.” Sad

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 09:37

Josiah Mortimer @josiahmortimer
Speaking to an anti-Putin Russian just now: "Who cares about Coca Cola and McDonalds pulling out? If you want to have your hip replaced, you can’t do it from now on. All the parts are made in Germany, not Russia. If you want to replace a tooth, all the equipment is made in Italy

Then this thread:

Kamil Galeev @kamilkazani
Let's discuss Russian economy. Many underestimate its dependency upon technological import. Russia's so deeply integrated into Western technological chains that severing these ties will lead to its collapse. Sanctions are already effective and can be made even more efficient

Some argue "Russia doesn't produce anything". Not quite. Although industrial goods plas little role in its export, it produces a lot for internal market. This is a 1ГПКС mining machine produced by a Копейский машзавод - monopolist on mining machines for potassium and coal mines

Owner of this factory isn't a mafia boss. He's an engineer who worked for 20 years designing mining machines, has 41 patents, etc. BUT. What equipment do they use to produce these machines? An industrial machine MORI SEIKI VL-553 II - made by a German branch of a Japanese company

This shows how deeply Russia is integrated into the Western technological chains. What Russia produces is produced on Western industrial machines, with Western technologies, Western software and with Western details. That ofc includes military industry which uses this all, too

Consider Diana Kaledina, CEO of Baltic Industrial Company which makes industrial machines for military plants. She says Russia doesn't produce bearings, ball screws, drives, CNC systems, spindles. So she has to import it all, although as a military supplier she isn't supposed to

Ofc government pressures producers to be self-reliant and independent upon import. However, import-substitution (импортзамещение) is 95% PR. Producers and mid-ranked officials pretend to do "import-substitution" because Putin tells so. For this fake work they get real awards

Consider Svetlana Orlova, governor of Vladimir. In 2017 she presented new tractor designed and produced by a local factory under her wise leadership. A CEO wouldn't shut up about how much she inspired them all and guided to this great accomplishment in import substitution

"Our governor can guide, can inspire, can command. Several of our main branches of production are organised by her direct orders. One of her last commands is to make our own tractor. It is a huge work of scientists, engineers technicians for the last two years" said CEO Lebedev

President Putin ordered to launch import-substitution. Governor Orlova obeyed and commanded a local factory to create a Russian tractor. CEO obeyed and engineers designed a new amazing machine АНТ 4135F. That's how Russian vertical of power works

And yet, Russian tractor АНТ 4135F isn't Russian. It's a Czech tractor Zetor Forterra 135. I wanna clarify, it is not a copy of a Czech tractor. It literally is a Czech tractor. Russian plant buys tractor kits in Czech Republic, assembles them and pretends they're home produced

Here you see governor Orlova in Brno, Czech Republic. What is she doing there? Well, she's buying kits for her home-produced tractors. In 2017 she bough 100 kits from Zetor Tractor company, in 2018 - 450. That's how she's import-substituting. Putin must be proud

Of course, it was all investigated. Of course, dishonest CEO of Russian factory was arrested. Fortunately, they found out that the governor was innocent & didn't know about CEO's shady schemes. So she continued her hard work developing a new home-produced tractor - Vladimirets

Fortunately her patriotism and hard work were well-noticed by Putin and he promoted her. Now she's an Auditor of the Accounts Chamber of the Russian Federation. She'll be checking the transparency of other branches of government and make sure they use government funds efficiently

That's how social mobility works in Russia. Bullshiters are actively promoted. Just pretend to work on import substitution, share stolen cash with influential people, and go up. Now you check financial transparency and prevent corruption. Your henchmen go to jail but who cares

Now you can ask. Russians are good in sciences and very good in math. Russian engineers were doing great in Soviet era & are successful abroad. How come Russia can't produce anything competitive on the world market? Apparently it's not a technical skill that is a limiting factor

Let's return to avocados, they give an answer to this question. Have you ever heard of blood avocados? They're called "blood" because almost all avocado production in Mexico is controlled by cartels. Thus when buying Mexican avocados you are directly funding the organised crime

Many misunderstand what "cartels" look like. They imagine ragged hobos with machetes. Nope. Cartels look like this. These are fighters of Jalisco cartel who are cheering the name of their gang boss - El Mencho. They look like an army. Because they are

Mancur Olson conceptualised state as a gang. On its early stages it's a roving bandit: criminal group that kills, burns and pillages not caring of negative externalias. But when it settles down, it becomes a less destructive stationary bandit. That paves a way for civilisation

Many consider Olson's theory as merely an analytical tool. I disagree. It seems that many empires, like Romans or Ottomans in their very beginnings were quite literally bandit gangs. That's why we have so few records from their beginnings. They didn't care about records back them

Well, in this context it seems that a cartel like Jalisco is a protostate. In fact, it has many state attributes and might not be so different from medieval "states" which we retrospectively glorify. That's understandable. But why avocados? Why not chairs, not smartphone apps?

Mafia is quite simple. It can't administer something complicated without either destroying the production completely or evolving to something that wouldn't be a mafia anymore. If they entered machinery production for example, they would either go bankrupt or stop being a mafia

Imagine if they entered some complicated business and had to directly engage into a Schumpeterian Creative Destruction. Soon they would have to recruit nerds. Then promote them. And eventially the balance of power within mafia gang would irreversibly change in favour of nerds

I'd argue that processes critically important for an organisation's existence define its evolution. If sth is existentially important, those providing it will have more leverage. And former strongmen become irrelevant. That's how many mafias of old evolved into sth different

Ergo. Economic processes aren't neutral power-wise. That's a major factor of evolution of power structures. That would also explain why many in power would sabotage economic development. If it's too complex for them to administer, it will change power balance not in their favour

That's why cartels choose avocado. It's resource extraction providing tradable goods for export. Perfect forage base for a mafia. They get them through violence&threats. So they must project violent, unpredictable image. Thus US have to sanction cartels and ban avocado imports

That's why cartels do so much seemingly needless violence. It's not "irrational" as some idiots who never ran a proper cartel would presume. It's perfectly rational. Violent image is a means of production for these guys. If they don't look scary, who's gonna give them avocados?

Z-guys are not that different from Jalisco cartel. Putin's moves make more sense if you consider that Russia is run by a mafia. By a criminal group which extracts tradable export goods through violence or threats. Violent image is Kremlin's means of production and must be kept

Let's make a simple visualisation of dominance hierarchy within Russian economy. Oi &gas are the simplest lucrative industries. Thus they are dominated by Putin's friends - the most mafia-like interest group. Metallurgy is more complicated. So it's run by old 1990s oligarchs

Why old oil and gas tycoons were expropriated, while metallurgy oligarchs were spared and largely remained rich through the entire Putin's era? Because metallurgy is too complicated for Putin's friends to control it directly. They spared it, because they are too mafia to run it

The closer you are to the seat of power, the more mafia like and thus simpler you are. You are just unable to administer anything complex. That's why the highest-ranked and the simplest interest group took oil and gas - something they could rip off without destroying. immediately

1990s oligarchs are more complex but lower in dominance hierarchy. They took something that they could administer without ruining it immediately - the metallurgy. Ofc they're ruining it slowly. They're depleting old deposits without developing new ones. But it will take time

And only really complex stuff like competitive machinery is left for nerds like a nengineer Skurov - the owner of that mining machine producing factory I talked about. That's very important. Complex machinery is administered by guys who are very low in Russian dominance hierarchy

That's quite important for understanding the economic prospects of Russia. Complex industries, especially hardware industries are run by very weak interest groups. Higher-ups tolerate the nerds because someone should do it, but they'll milk those miserables dry

The thread goes on (and on and on) and I won't post here cos it largely repeats the same idea as above but you can read the rest here
twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1501402174970118146

Just to kind of add to this, Zelensky's appearance in 'Servant of the People' probably more threatening to Putin than NATO ever was. It puts the idea of state mafia front and central and then says 'we don't want this'. And its in a popular format which will have far greater reach than any other.

The C4 documentary on Zelensky makes the point that many Ukrainians feel like they are watching season 10 of 'Servant of the People' when they watch Zelensky's war addresses.

(Again I'd say its well worth watching at least the first episide to really get the point on this).

People who think or are nerds threaten Putin.

Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 10
Thewayshetalks · 09/03/2022 09:37

@Motherdare

The daily mail is and always has been such an irresponsible outlet, todays story about the squaddies shows this once more

The story is in many papers today.

Irresponsible of them all.

I did just read that they report it to show they are AWOL and not that the MOD sent them in purposely so that people can see it was against the rules
prettybird · 09/03/2022 09:37

Zelenskyy spoke to the UK Parliament well after having spoken to the EU Parliament and the US Senate. Shows where the UK is now in the list of "influencers" Hmm whatever BJ might claim about the UK "leading the the world" Confused

HeadPain · 09/03/2022 09:38

Don't know if this is posted. For some reason it won't let me log in to read the full thing

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/syrian-volunteers-could-fight-fellow-countrymen-in-ukraine-war-mr2brr66d

"Syrians who survived President Putin’s assault on civilian targets in their home country are volunteering to join the fight against Russian forces in Ukraine.

Osama Burhan, in his mid-30s, was among millions who fled the Syrian civil war as the Assad regime bombarded cities across the country, with Russian warplanes carrying out devastating airstrikes on residential areas.

Today he is living in Baalbek, Lebanon, but said he wants to travel to Ukraine and fight, even as reports emerge that Russia is recruiting Syrians loyal to the Assad regime to fight against Kyiv’s armed forces. That would raise the prospect of Syrians fighting against each other in eastern Europe."

PestorPeston · 09/03/2022 09:38

Seems to have been the only humanitarian corridor that has held @Monitaurus the Indian government have played an active part in getting their people out.

dogfishman · 09/03/2022 09:38

@saku
NATO has no missiles in Eastern Europe and agreed with Russia in 1997 that it saw no reason to place any there. NATO would almost certainly have agreed not to place any in Ukraine if Ukraine had joined. NATO's conventional forces in Ukraine would have numbered a few thousand soldiers - no threat to Russia at all.
Russia is genuinely paranoid about NATO, but paranoia is what it is. It would have been better for Ukraine to have dialled down the NATO rhetoric while Putin is still around. But Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014 understandably stiffened Ukraine's determination to join NATO ASAP.

HeadPain · 09/03/2022 09:38

Can anyone get the full article ?

HeadPain · 09/03/2022 09:40

@HeadPain

Don't know if this is posted. For some reason it won't let me log in to read the full thing

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/syrian-volunteers-could-fight-fellow-countrymen-in-ukraine-war-mr2brr66d

"Syrians who survived President Putin’s assault on civilian targets in their home country are volunteering to join the fight against Russian forces in Ukraine.

Osama Burhan, in his mid-30s, was among millions who fled the Syrian civil war as the Assad regime bombarded cities across the country, with Russian warplanes carrying out devastating airstrikes on residential areas.

Today he is living in Baalbek, Lebanon, but said he wants to travel to Ukraine and fight, even as reports emerge that Russia is recruiting Syrians loyal to the Assad regime to fight against Kyiv’s armed forces. That would raise the prospect of Syrians fighting against each other in eastern Europe."

Can anyone get the full article?
RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 09:41

Lindsay the Bruce @LLBruce
Remember my story of the Ukrainian women in Aberdeen trying to get their family a UK family scheme visa to flee Ukraine? They found out after a whole day filling out one application that the visitor visas (they were granted before war broke out but which were lost by UK) mean they are disqualified from applying for the family scheme that came in as a result of war.

These two educated women, in a non war zone have taken an entire day to fill out one application that is now void. BUT if they decide to cancel the visitor visas the only way the family members can get past the first level of the UK visa red tape is to somehow - and I quote - get to a shop in Poland so their documents can be printed and verified.

They also have to have a verified translator to translate for them at a cost.

They're in a bloody war people! They don't have a pen, a photocopier, access to a translator... they are sleeping on the floor of a bomb shelter with their kids. They grabbed one suitcase for all for of them and ran. This is an absolute embarrassment. They were asked to prove how much they earn. What difference does that make now their city has been bombed?? Come on @ukhomeoffice @pritipatel can we help this Aberdeen family?

This is the video of their appeal for help

twitter.com/pressjournal/status/1501467840708321283

CaveMum · 09/03/2022 09:42

@RedToothBrush interesting point in the Russian reliance on imported machinery. I wonder if the same applies to their oil and gas production? Presumably things will keep running fine in the short term but if problems arise with broken components that cannot be replaced they will be forced to reduce/shut down extraction?

CaveMum · 09/03/2022 09:46

@HeadPain I got in trouble (post deleted) for doing it before so I’ll try to be a bit more subtle this time Wink

If you go to the website archive dot today you can put a link to the Times article in the box at the top of the page and it should convert the link to an accessible version.

It doesn’t work for every website but does seem to bypass the Times paywall.

Monitaurus · 09/03/2022 09:48

Pestor so what is India promising to Russia in exchange? However it certainly looks as though diplomacy won in this case.

JanetPluchinsky · 09/03/2022 09:49

Is anyone watching the Russian statement right now? Are they gearing up to declare war on the US or am I misunderstanding?

Stating very clearly that US and allies are building bio weapons along the Russian border.

RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 09:50

Scott Stedman@ScottMStedman
BREAKING: An indictment has just been filed against Elena Branson, after I wrote about the FBI investigation into her months ago:
forensicnews.net/fbi-investigates-russian-diaspora-group-for-potential-espionage-unregistered-political-activity/

THE INDICTMENT: Branson is charged with "espionage lite" just as the Forensic News article discussed.

WOW. Indictment says that Branson was an agent of the Russian government for over a decade, including taking funding and direction from senior Russian officials.

This indictment is just remarkable. The FBI is alleging that both the Russian Center in NY and KSORS, the Russian youth diaspora group, were Russian government fronts.

"Throughout, BRANSON has received funding and direction from the Russian Government, including from the Russian Embassy in the United States, and received tasking from high-level Russian Government officials and Russian Governmentrun organizations."

The use of the word "tasking" is intentional and striking. It gives insight into why they charged Section 951 ("espionage-lite") and not just FARA. They think Branson was a spy, not just an unregistered agent.

Branson in a 2016 email:

“Once again, I sincerely thank the Government of Moscow and the Moscow House of Compatriot for approving the application ‘for providing financial support to the KSORS website’ in the amount of 700,000 rubles.”

Goldmine for the FBI. KSORS appears to have recorded all of their board meetings. During a review of Branson's emails, they found all of the recordings.

During one of the recorded meetings, Branson says that KSORS shouldn't use the term "political" because “they will make us register as agents,”

Russian Ambassador Anatoly Antonov appears to have been one of Branson's handlers. He appears all throughout the indictment. Here he is asking for updates on what she and her group were doing.

Branson tried to set up a meeting with Trump and a Russian government official in 2016

This is hugely significant because Branson and KSORS rallied Trump voters in 2020.

Holy crap. Branson was the person that invited Trump to the chess tournament that Mueller investigated for a long time. Peskov and Dmitriev were there.

Branson or someone at the Russian Center registered an account to eFile FARA paperwork in 2019 but they never submitted anything after emailing the Russian Ambassador for guidance.

This might be the most significant Russian agent charge since Anna Chapman. It is expansive, with at least 7 unnamed co-conspirators, and based on what we know/what has been reported, this could easily snowball into more people being charged.

/end

I think we might see a lot more stuff that investigative journalists have looked at over the last few years getting a lot more publicity and being harder to ignore. And a few more cases where charges actually end up being brought - throughout Europe.

The problem with the UK is just how many are in positions of power now (and might want to keep them there, because if they go, then you are more likely to see investigations).

PestorPeston · 09/03/2022 09:50

Monitaurus as has been mentioned in these threads before:
Who else can India lease a nuclear submarine from?

FourHigh · 09/03/2022 09:55

@JanetPluchinsky

Is anyone watching the Russian statement right now? Are they gearing up to declare war on the US or am I misunderstanding?

Stating very clearly that US and allies are building bio weapons along the Russian border.

That's what I was thinking. Nothing in BBC yet.
RedToothBrush · 09/03/2022 09:58

[quote CaveMum]@RedToothBrush interesting point in the Russian reliance on imported machinery. I wonder if the same applies to their oil and gas production? Presumably things will keep running fine in the short term but if problems arise with broken components that cannot be replaced they will be forced to reduce/shut down extraction?[/quote]
I don't think it will be quite like that.

Remember that Oil and gas are one of the few things where they will still be bringing in money.

They probably will find ways to make part / take from elsewhere / get on the black market. Especially if other industries end up effectively 'shut down'.

But none of this is cheap. It will mean they either have to pass on costs or they lose profit margin.

Its a head ache rather than a barrier which will ultimately stop production. But it will probably contribute to spiralling costs.

In this sense, the EU and UK approach of phasing out rather than banning, is somewhat self fulfilling anyway, because it will be market driven. It makes sense to source elsewhere rather than be party to spiralling Russian costs.

It also makes it hard for Russia to offload to 3rd parties too, if production is upped.

If I were an enterprising Russian with aspiration, I think I'd be going into scrap metal right now... it sounds both lucrative and likely to improve your social standing. Its Russia's PPE rush.

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